Remove xp penalty's from death

IMO if you having 10 characters level 85, it really just proves you have severe ADHD.

I'm Sorry if I go against your whole philosphy Moos. But guess what, I found this game, I learned this game, I got my character to 100, and played through the content. You can keep saying that this discussion is only helping those who are QQ and give up at 95, but really, I'm here.

I'm here, and I stand by this thread. Would love the XP penalty to be reduced at high levels.

Do I have anything to gain? No, I'm not going to level up a whole other character when I got a perfectly good level 100. Am I going to play any differently if the changes were made? Personally, no, but hopefully more people can experience end game Path of exile.

So really, my opinion is well waranted.

"

levy42088 wrote:

@Moos.
You said "Same point as reflect. Fine tuning something is MUCH different than asking for it's outright removal like the OP is asking and many people in this thread are asking. "

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this whole discussion hasn't once asked to totally remove anything. It is discussing how we can "Tune" The xp penalty to be fair for even the higher level players

Read the very first paragraph by OP of post:

"

Since desync isnt going away (wah, wah it'll let cheaters run rampant, so to minimize that lets punish the 99% of our player-base who dont cheat - Dev logic) at least remove the penalty we get because the server thought we just stood there scratching our ass instead of accepting what we, the players, did to try and avoid it.

I can probably dig up a good number of post in-between as well. I will admit the post that provided the best feedback in this case are ones not asking for removal, but simply an adjustment.

Overall, it doesn't matter what cause the death, out of your control or not. What matters is how players perceive the death penalty.

We could argue of semantics of how easy or hard it was to get to level 100 in the past or the fact that the penalty overall has been reduced in more then one way, but that doesn't really matter.

Lets state some facts:

If you don't die, you lose nothing, no XP loss.

People in PoE can get to level 100 and not die a single time.


Based on those facts one can say if your goal is to get to level 100 you must realize a few things:

High level maps are expensive. Maintaining a high level map pool is expensive. Leveling past 90 (except level 99-100) requires very high level maps being chained.

This isn't fun for all people, you must invest significant time, currency and patients in order to reach level 99. Leveling to this shouldn't be something automatic for every player, no one and I mean no one needs those last 10-15 skill points for their build to work. Getting to level 100 is and should always be both challenging and rewarding, if the penalty is removed or reduced to such a point where it isn't then you are removing that from the game.

The whole fact this topic was created to remove the penalty rather then what is now being discussed as adjusting it (even though I feel like quite a few people discussing either want this removed or reduced to the point where it is basically removed) is a testament to how far this discussion has changed.

Yes the penalty seems to be much harsher at higher levels, but why shouldn't it be. I have yet to hear an argument on to why a well gear, well planned out character shouldn't face a penalty of 10% on death at high levels.

Life isn't fair, why should death be?

@Moos "Yes the penalty seems to be much harsher at higher levels, but why shouldn't it be. I have yet to hear an argument on to why a well gear, well planned out character shouldn't face a penalty of 10% on death at high levels."

I know for a fact I gave a couple arguments why a well geared should face a 10% penalty

Lets start with

1) As everyone stated, those last 10-15 Passive points are not make or break to any builds, so at level 95, the death penalty becomes LESS about a build/gear check.

2) Right now, the "trick" to get to 100, would be to play by yourself, take an hour per map. Only pull 1 rare at a time. tippy toe around each map. It will take forever, and it won't be fun, but you will get to 100.

But because no matter how good your build is, there are several things in this game that can kill anyone. So due to some messed up coincidences and multipliers you just got 1 shot. So why are we penalizing the player for a freak accident. Obviously noone WANTS to die, but sometimes crazy shit happens, and with the frequency that "shit hits the fan", I feel the 10% is too much xp to lose.


I don't think this is what GGG wants in an ARPG.. They want you Pwn'ing shit, getting your character the best gear, make him look sweet. ect. brb lunch break

"

1) As everyone stated, those last 10-15 Passive points are not make or break to any builds, so at level 95, the death penalty becomes LESS about a build/gear check.

How is it not a build\gear\playstyle check, you don't die in PoE unless you fuck up. Really comes down to that.

"

2) Right now, the "trick" to get to 100, would be to play by yourself, take an hour per map. Only pull 1 rare at a time. tippy toe around each map. It will take forever, and it won't be fun, but you will get to 100.

The trick is to just not play with retards, I can assure you the best way to get to level 100 is a trusted well communicated rotation group. I'd love for other level 100's to chime in, but it doesn't appear we will get any.

"

But because no matter how good your build is, there are several things in this game that can kill anyone. So due to some messed up coincidences and multipliers you just got 1 shot. So why are we penalizing the player for a freak accident. Obviously noone WANTS to die, but sometimes crazy shit happens, and with the frequency that "shit hits the fan", I feel the 10% is too much xp to lose.

Why are HC players punished by completely removing the character from that league. If death wasn't avoidable or easily planned around then we would have no level 100 characters in HC leagues, but we do.

"

I don't think this is what GGG wants in an ARPG.. They want you Pwn'ing shit, getting your character the best gear, make him look sweet. ect. brb lunch break

How do they not want death to mean something, if they didn't they would remove the penalty, but they didn't?

Again @levy you seem to be making this conversation all about getting level 100, it isn't truly about that, it is whether or not the death penalty is effective at punishing deaths.

This conversation IS about changing the XP penalty. The largest group that it effects is the people leveling from 90-100.

So this topic IS "How can we change the death Penalty to balance with the XP required in the higher levels"

If I wanted to risk having hours and hours of my life taken from me, I would play hardcore. But I DO NOT want that. But on my journey from 1-100, I realized that 1 death at the higher levels is pretty much the same penalty. So are we in standard or hardcore?

And @ Moos
"Why are HC players punished by completely removing the character from that league. If death wasn't avoidable or easily planned around then we would have no level 100 characters in HC leagues, but we do."

This is because of the "strategy" I told you on how to hit level 100. Play by yourself, never pull more then 1 mob at a time, have an Alt-F4 Macro, potion macro's, and maybe an auto logout macro if you get below 80% health.

Oh, isn't Hardcore a blast?! Sounds so much more fun then standard.

Death is mathematically bound to find your character. No matter how careful you play. There are so many Multipliers for damage, ele damage, attack speed, crit damage, that if a couple of these multipliers roll high (which is mathematically bound to happen) then there is nothing you, or your build can do.

If some stupid shit happened in hardcore, you don't think GGG would do something about it??

Remember the league where people kept riiping on devourers or carrion beatles at city of sarn?

I don't know how many people died due to it, but the FEEDBACK caused GGG to step in and resurect all those hardcore players because "that wasn't fair".

"

levy42088 wrote:

This is because of the "strategy" I told you on how to hit level 100. Play by yourself, never pull more then 1 mob at a time, have an Alt-F4 Macro, potion macro's, and maybe an auto logout macro if you get below 80% health.

Oh, isn't Hardcore a blast?! Sounds so much more fun then standard.

You really think that ppl play HC way you described?lol

"

levy42088 wrote:

If some stupid shit happened in hardcore, you don't think GGG would do something about it??

Remember the league where people kept riiping on devourers or carrion beatles at city of sarn?

I don't know how many people died due to it, but the FEEDBACK caused GGG to step in and resurect all those hardcore players because "that wasn't fair".

It was beatles in city of sarn, they were able to pinpoint exactly which characters died from it any ONLY resurrect those players. It is also something they mentioned they wouldn't likely do in the future.

That was a BUG they introduced into the game with a patch, not something that has been in the game for many many years.

This line cracks me up:

"

If I wanted to risk having hours and hours of my life taken from me, I would play hardcore. But I DO NOT want that. But on my journey from 1-100, I realized that 1 death at the higher levels is pretty much the same penalty. So are we in standard or hardcore?

You aren't losing all those hours, you still gained currency, maps and depending on how often you die XP. It isn't even close to the same penalty as deing in HC, you still have your character, his items, your stash, you have literally everything but 10% of XP lost.

Your comparison is as good as saying I took $10 from you when you have $1000, no you didn't lose all of it or anywhere close to it.

"

Moosifer wrote:

You think that the death penalty is being scaled around high levels when really GGG does not balance around optional content like that. If they did high lvl maps would be easier to come by and cheaper. It wouldn't cost 70+ ex (which if you're saying that's the cost of one death you're WAY out there).

70+ ex is the mapping cost of 10% XP at level 99 based on the following observation and calculation:

Observation: Completion of 5 level 75 maps at level 95 without gaining 1% XP. This can vary based on map mods, map type, monster density, number of strongboxes, types of monsters, and presence of other players. Baseline extrapolation is 50-60 level 75 maps required for 10% at level 95.

10% at level 95 requires 23,516,340 XP.
10% at level 99 requires 31,751,591 XP.
Source: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Experience

A level 95 character in a 75 zone incurs a 93% XP penalty.
A level 99 character in a 78 zone incurs a 93% XP penalty
Source: http://pathofexilebuilds.com/exppenaltycalc.php

23,516,340 /.07 = 335,947,714 XP required from 75 maps to gain 10% XP at level 95.
As per my observation, 335,947,714 XP = approx. 50-60 level 75 maps.

31,751,591 /.07 = 453,594,157 XP required from 78 maps to gain 10% XP at level 99.
Since the XP penalty for this comparison is the same, we can estimate the number of 78 maps required to gain 10% at level 99 via:
453,594,157 / 335,947,714 = 1.35
Using a mean value of maps, 55*1.35 = 74.

Hence somewhere around 74*level 78 maps are required to gain 10% XP at level 99 (a little less due to the difference in base XP gained from monsters 3 levels higher).

Level 78 maps used to sell quite easily for 1ex, which is where the 70+ ex cost came from (and that doesn't even include the additional currency cost to chisel/alch/chaos them). Currently I can sell 3*78maps for 2ex on standard. If you want to use that valuation instead, the cost is 74*2/3 = 49.33 ex for white 78 maps (then add the rolling cost), for 10% XP at level 99.

Note also that this shows that high lvl maps HAVE become easier to come by and cheaper. Some specific reasons for this: strongboxes, exiles, zana mods and intrinsic bonus, map affix additions such as beyond, chisel recipes and master conversion, vaal fragment addition, removal of maze/massive and increase of baseline map size. Based on your comment this would imply that GGG is balancing around "optional" content.

"

Moosifer wrote:

Are you REALLY saying you stopped playing at 95 just because you didn't want to die anymore?

No. But I stopped trying to level that character at 95 because of the death penalty. The build itself, in combination with my geographic location, gearing budget, and skill level cannot progress beyond 95 explicitly because of the death penalty. Even beyond how inept as a player I may or may not be, I die to latency or desync often enough to terminate my goals for further XP progression. So now that character is a speed runner, repurposed to farm 76 and 77 maps rapidly in order to sell 78's, with no regard for the death penalty whatsoever.

"

Moosifer wrote:

You are incapable of making your build able to handle this content?

Is it your view that a build which dies once every 30-50 maps is incapable of handling those maps? While such a view seems preposterous (how many consecutive maps must one run without a death to be deemed capable? Why does GGG even supply 6 portals for a solo opener?), I will answer your question anyway: I wouldn't enjoy playing the sort of build that would be required for me to not die once every 30-50 maps.

"

Moosifer wrote:

You are incapable of avoiding things that might kill you?

Yes, I got to level 95 precisely because I cannot avoid things that might kill me. Obviously, all of the players at level 95 can get there by dieing constantly. :rolleyes:

You know, there's a league for people who never die, or aim to never die. It's called hardcore (or bloodlines). I do play with that goal in small amounts (namely, season races). But my preference is standard, because I recognize that I will die every now and then. In fact I would find the game incredibly boring if I couldn't die or built my character in a way to completely avoid any possibility of death.

"

Moosifer wrote:

There's no way to balance the death penalty around these high levels without making it trivial at lower levels. The only way I see is to make an overly complicated one like many suggested. A time related one, which has been suggested and GGG has said they don't like it because it just encourages people to play other characters/accounts to wait out the punishment (or walk away altogether which is WAY worse than the current punishment). Or you put a special reduction at an randomly picked higher level where the penalty is lower. Which as you can get back exp in merci play in 5-20 mins, how do you possibly scale that correctly between 90 and 99 for example? What, 1% at 90 and .001% at 99? So it's fair?

What's wrong with a sliding scale based on level? It's not complicated at all to use a formula that incorporates character level instead of blanket 10%. Alternatively they could cap the 10% penalty at a fixed amount of XP loss, which isn't complicated to do either.

If the XP penalty is less prohibitive to 90+ leveling, it will indirectly mitigate the dominant strategy of players with IIR/IIQ/maxDPS throwing themselves at content without regard for death, because reaching higher levels may become more viable for enough builds, geographic regions, and player skill levels, such that it impacts goal setting on a broad scale.

"

Moosifer wrote:

I promise you when they are looking at how to balance the death penalty they aren't focusing on how to make it fair for people in their 90s, but those from 80s and down.

If GGG hasn't considered or focused on the fairness of the death penalty for players in their 90s, it just reinforces the importance of this feedback thread. As the game becomes easier (more DPS/mitigation in the skill tree, stronger gear, crafting, greater access to high level content (easier map return, 76 zones from daily masters and zana), and time (year+ of leveling), more players are reaching the levels now where a blanket 10% XP penalty negatively affects goal setting and player satisfaction.

"

Moosifer wrote:

90+ is optional and should always be looked upon as such. You guys blatantly ignore this argument and push forward as if a mid-90's play experience should be as balanced as someone in their 70s. Unless GGG plans to forego their philosophy that 100 should be a grind, this will not happen. I also suspect at that point is when they start catering to casuals rather than HC players and will be the beginning of the end.

First, the whole game is optional. Second, getting to 100 is a significant grind with or without a death penalty (which is not to say that I want it removed, but I do want a lower cap on the penalty at higher levels). Third, HC players have HC leagues.

Finally, and once again, stop trying to refute/dismiss feedback/suggestions based on what you perceive GGG's position to be. It's not relevant, useful, or constructive. Argue the viability of a suggestion based on its own merits, how it affects you or how you think it will affect the player base. If we all based arguments on whether or not we thought GGG would approve we would be failing to provide course-changing feedback when it's due.

"

Moosifer wrote:

D3 is built for people with the mindset you guys bring, POE is built for guys like me. Stop trying to make this game into something it's not just because you don't want to do what's required to get something completely unnecessary.

Really, that's your argument? That, essentially, I'm a filthy casual who should go away or go back to d3?

If PoE was exclusively built for guys like you we probably wouldn't have HC leagues or race seasons (based on you having 0 characters in HC leagues and 11 lifetime season points, despite a join date of 2012). To compare, I have a 95, 92, 90, 83, and 81, at one point I had two characters in the top 10 ladder for US-STD open pvp, and I have participated at least to some degree in 8/11 race seasons. But who cares? Ultimately, this line of discussion is quite silly. PoE has multiple leagues and is more than capable of attracting and satisfying players on different ends of the HC/casual spectrum.

"

And1111 wrote:

"

levy42088 wrote:

This is because of the "strategy" I told you on how to hit level 100. Play by yourself, never pull more then 1 mob at a time, have an Alt-F4 Macro, potion macro's, and maybe an auto logout macro if you get below 80% health.

Oh, isn't Hardcore a blast?! Sounds so much more fun then standard.

You really think that ppl play HC way you described?lol

Some do.

But in all likelihood, just as many, or more, do the exact same thing in Standard. 10% penalty is rough, and not everyone has full confidence in their automated cheats.

Do not pretend everyone in your chosen league is innocent. No matter where you are, there are cheats among you.

@Moos
and I went the better part of a month without it happening to me. Are you telling me I got lucky over 500-1000 maps? Is everyone over 85 in HC playing literally invincible builds and getting lucky too?

Yes, when you get to the higher levels, it becomes less about skill and more about luck.. And Im having a really hard time believing you have run 500-1000 Maps in a row without dying.

@Vhlad
Nice points. If Moos is too thick headed to see the problem that is right in front of him, then keep giving him evidence to support the claims. His thick head will slowly wrap around what were saying.