Remove xp penalty's from death

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goetzjam wrote:

The XP penalty is necessary to prevent players from making "shit" builds. Without a penalty in softcore players will push the limits even further for damage vs surviability and removing the penalty for deing would not be a good thing.

No someone reaching level 100 has no affect on me playing, however if no death penalty exists it does remove the prestige from the accomplishment.

1. What's wrong with letting people play "shit" builds?

It's slower and less efficient, and they aren't likely to full clear their maps if it's a truly shitty build, so it doesn't have any major big picture consequences. Also, it doesn't effect you and your play in any direct way unless you opt to play with them--which you can choose not to.

2. Why is "prestige" for a few players more valuable than an overall better player experience for more players?

As it is, even if they did remove the penalty, it's a hell of a grind to 100 regardless, so some of that prestige would still exist. I don't see how the few supposed downsides to this outweighs the enormous benefit (especially in terms of fun) it provides to a larger player base.

~~~

This may be another one of those things where our core views are too different, but I just don't see these as good reasons to hinder the player experience.

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Moosifer wrote:

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The funny part to me is, that you pretty much only play Softcore characters...

If I played only HC it would be stupid for me to speak about what rules should apply to other leagues. I play only SC leagues so my say is just as important as your's as I'm under the same rules. Your death on your lvl 88 has much less impact than a death on my 99 but I still support the penalty. As a death costs me a day or more of work I adjusted my build so it was able to survive tougher situations, the death penalty single handily help me craft a better character, as in the end it was more well rounded. Also the changes made me look for better offensive options to make up for what I was sacrificing for ExP.

By adjusting your buld, you mean running out the room whenever you see a reflect mob right? No matter how 'tough' your character is, shit happens. wether with nemesis mods, damage multipliers, or extra damage, you can easily get 1 shot by anything if you just get unlucky.

How about this for a suggestion about the death penalty:

When you die one time, you do NOT lose xp, and you come back with a debuff called 'Crippling Wounds' which lasts for 60 Minutes. If you die again, while affected by 'Crippling Wounds' You will lose 10% xp, and restart the 'Crippling Wounds' Timer back to 60 minutes.

So if u die one time accidently, no xp loss, but if you didn't learn your mistake, and die again without the hour, you will get the normal penalty

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

I just dont see why those people who absolutely must have a penalty cant just impose one upon themselves such as not placing their points for a level if they died. I mean its kinda the same concept as the argument of self-found versus trading, why should we be taking fun from people who would rather not incur a penalty on death when those who want to be penalized can do it to themselves. Its not as though somebody else reaching 100 has any effect on your ability to play the game, does it?

XP Penalty is part of the game design, SFL is not. You can't make an equivalence between the two. People that want SFL are being told by a part of the community that they can choose to do so themselves, people that want the XP penalty just have to play the game as it is. It has nothing to do with each other. It's like those people that think they answer the "no need for a dedicated self found league for those who want to play Self Found" argument with the usual "well just get rid of HC leagues and delete your character when you die then !". The big difference is : HC leagues are part of the game design, SFL is not. They have nothing in common.

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I personally would love to be able to play the craziest modded maps with my funnest characters without the added stress of having to pussyfoot around every potential threat. You see, I have a lvl 93 melee ranger, she got about 65% to lvl 94 before i accidentally hit a phys reflect mob because it was under a puddle. Lost the 10% and havent played that character since. Its too bad too, i had the most fun with that toon, hence why it made it to lvl 93, but now i cant even play it because if i lose any more of that xp it would infuriate me so I would rather avoid that feeling all together, even if it means not enjoying the game to its fullest potential. Because of this I havent even played much PoE lately. Tried torment in the beginning, even participating in economy (holy shit game is easy as fuck when trading, had 6l chest within my first day of torment), but that is becoming un-fun because i realize that no matter what i do, if i make a build that i really enjoy playing, there will become a point where its no longer worth it to play it because i would rather not progress than lose progress.

That says nothing about the game but more about you. The fact you could not handle a 10%xp lost at level 93 because you brainfarted on a reflect pack then ragequitted to never come back has nothing to do with the game or a possible flaw it could have. But eh, "it is never on my end, better blame the game and ask for a change in the game design because of that right ?". Typical PoE forums mentality 101.

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levy42088 wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

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The funny part to me is, that you pretty much only play Softcore characters...

If I played only HC it would be stupid for me to speak about what rules should apply to other leagues. I play only SC leagues so my say is just as important as your's as I'm under the same rules. Your death on your lvl 88 has much less impact than a death on my 99 but I still support the penalty. As a death costs me a day or more of work I adjusted my build so it was able to survive tougher situations, the death penalty single handily help me craft a better character, as in the end it was more well rounded. Also the changes made me look for better offensive options to make up for what I was sacrificing for ExP.

By adjusting your buld, you mean running out the room whenever you see a reflect mob right? No matter how 'tough' your character is, shit happens. wether with nemesis mods, damage multipliers, or extra damage, you can easily get 1 shot by anything if you just get unlucky.

How about this for a suggestion about the death penalty:

When you die one time, you do NOT lose xp, and you come back with a debuff called 'Crippling Wounds' which lasts for 60 Minutes. If you die again, while affected by 'Crippling Wounds' You will lose 10% xp, and restart the 'Crippling Wounds' Timer back to 60 minutes.

So if u die one time accidently, no xp loss, but if you didn't learn your mistake, and die again without the hour, you will get the normal penalty

I like that you are thinking, but time based windows aren't a good idea. If you die once you simply play another character or log out of the game for an hour. Instead of risking losing that XP.

I like that you are trying to come up with some solution rather then remove it completely because removing it completely won't happen.

The grind to level 100 has an economic impact if every single player doesn't lose XP when they die, so while a few people getting to level 100 doesn't have an impact on me, the ability to never lose XP does. It has an impact in terms of balance as well.

@rex not sure what your highest level character is, but getting those last 10 skill points or so is optional for almost every single build out there.

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goetzjam wrote:

The XP penalty is necessary to prevent players from making "shit" builds. Without a penalty in softcore players will push the limits even further for damage vs surviability and removing the penalty for deing would not be a good thing.

No someone reaching level 100 has no affect on me playing, however if no death penalty exists it does remove the prestige from the accomplishment.

"

I personally would love to be able to play the craziest modded maps with my funnest characters without the added stress of having to pussyfoot around every potential threat.

You can do this, just realize that if you die your not getting anymore XP. This is a choice in the game you make, you mention your character is level 93, grats, now if you want those additional 7 points, your going to have to work for it.

So the only way to enjoy the end game is to admit that you have failed and your never going to level up again? If thats the case, then GGG should make an option to "Quit Leveling" So you don't gain any more xp, so if you die you don't really lose anything.

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You and you alone are setting that artificial point where it isn't worth playing anymore, because you feel like you don't gain anything if your not gaining XP, that isn't true, you gain drops, you gain currency and if you don't play like a "retard" you gain XP. I have some sympathy for players that have desync issues, but you don't seem to be one of them.

As stated before, us "white knights" are aligned with GGG here and insists a penalty must exists for deaths.

Getting to level 100 is optional, it should be a journey not a freebie, removing the penalty removes the journey.

You play the game to get xp. Thats always the constant. Even if you get crap for drops, at least I got xp out of it. the XP is like the trophy of how long you have played, not how long u have played without dying (thats what hardcore is for)

and no, removing the penalty will let others enjoy the journey. were not asking GGG to cut the required XP in half. I just don't think its fair to make it so if you sneeze in the middle of a pack you lose hours of constant mapping... all that, for a .25 second mistake. that is NOT what they put the xp penalty for. Also I do NOT think they wanted the xp penalty to deter people from exploring theyre game to the fullist, and DEFINITALLY NOT to cause people to rage quit in the middle of a map rotation becasue they were at 95% and just died due to being 1 shot by some random bad luck.

I am level 100, and my /deaths is 1200+ No matter how many times you die, you still have to get the xp required to get to 100. So if you remove the death penalty, you won't see many more level 100's then u would now.

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goetzjam wrote:

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levy42088 wrote:

e

How about this for a suggestion about the death penalty:

When you die one time, you do NOT lose xp, and you come back with a debuff called 'Crippling Wounds' which lasts for 60 Minutes. If you die again, while affected by 'Crippling Wounds' You will lose 10% xp, and restart the 'Crippling Wounds' Timer back to 60 minutes.

So if u die one time accidently, no xp loss, but if you didn't learn your mistake, and die again without the hour, you will get the normal penalty

I like that you are thinking, but time based windows aren't a good idea. If you die once you simply play another character or log out of the game for an hour. Instead of risking losing that XP.

I like that you are trying to come up with some solution rather then remove it completely because removing it completely won't happen.

The grind to level 100 has an economic impact if every single player doesn't lose XP when they die, so while a few people getting to level 100 doesn't have an impact on me, the ability to never lose XP does. It has an impact in terms of balance as well.

If your playing with all your friends on a friday night, and you die, are you really doing to log onto your alt and play for an hour? I highly doubt that. So please be rational with your thinking. And if your really concerned that 'non social people will take advantage' then make it an ACCOUNT SPECIFIC timer that persists after logout. I really am starting to agree with the other poster that you're just disagreeing with everything for the sake of disagreeing. Open your mind up, this game is no where near close to perfect. And community discussions are how GGG gets our feedback so they can adjust they're game to keep us customers happy and our wallets OPEN.

You see, that is why all these chains like radioshack / walmart / best buy send us junk mail asking us to take a survey, or tell them how your visit was. This isn't just a dumb waste. This is actually the one time a business can see things from the customers perspective. These forums are GGG's "How are we doing?" Survey. And this thread is about how a lot of us, feel something should be done about the xp penalty upon death.

And in regards to making specific characters if the XP Penalty is removed, that is silly. If you can't do content without dying now, why do you think it will change if you give yourself less survivability?

If you pick a full 120 point skill tree with no health nodes, and built some crap build, guess what? your still going to die. Yes, you will die, you won't lose the xp. But then when u go back into the map, guess what? Your DEAD again!, rinse repeat for 4 more portals. So unless you got lucky and had a Cast on Death crit, you most likely won't enjoy ANY loot.. The 6 Portals (or 1 portal per person in party of 6) are the safe guard from preventing this abuse. No matter what, you get 6 deaths at 1 map, no matter how much xp u were going to lose.

Sooo if you have a crap build, penalty or not, you are going to die. And is it worth buying a palace at level 85, and trying to solo it because of no xp penalty?

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If your playing with all your friends on a friday night

What friends?

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, and you die, are you really doing to log onto your alt and play for an hour? I highly doubt that.

Considering I don't play with friends probably will play another character or do something else for an hour. Just because you don't think you would doesn't mean people wouldn't abuse the system.

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So please be rational with your thinking. And if your really concerned that 'non social people will take advantage' then make it an ACCOUNT SPECIFIC timer that persists after logout.

I am responding rationally, that is what I would do as well as others. If you make it account specific people will stop playing the game for an hour, really think about both sides of your proposed argument rather then what you alone have to gain from the change.

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And in regards to making specific characters if the XP Penalty is removed, that is silly. If you can't do content without dying now, why do you think it will change if you give yourself less survivability?

Um going full yolo damage for the fastest clear speed would be the best way to level, especially alone where portals don't matter.

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If you pick a full 120 point skill tree with no health nodes, and built some crap build, guess what? your still going to die. Yes, you will die, you won't lose the xp. But then when u go back into the map, guess what? Your DEAD again!, rinse repeat for 4 more portals. So unless you got lucky and had a Cast on Death crit, you most likely won't enjoy ANY loot.. The 6 Portals (or 1 portal per person in party of 6) are the safe guard from preventing this abuse. No matter what, you get 6 deaths at 1 map, no matter how much xp u were going to lose.

Your missing a very fine line that will be abused to the fullest if you remove the XP penalty, which will be what happens. If you think the meta now is damage>hp, just wait until this change.

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Sooo if you have a crap build, penalty or not, you are going to die. And is it worth buying a palace at level 85, and trying to solo it because of no xp penalty?

Palace is easier then courtyard and yes it would be worth it (assuming you can afford it in the first place) Most people skip that boss anyway.

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levy42088 wrote:

You see, that is why all these chains like radioshack / walmart / best buy send us junk mail asking us to take a survey, or tell them how your visit was. This isn't just a dumb waste. This is actually the one time a business can see things from the customers perspective. These forums are GGG's "How are we doing?" Survey. And this thread is about how a lot of us, feel something should be done about the xp penalty upon death.

That's totally not the case, making once again your analogy (here, between customers feedback asked by giant corporations and GGG forums) 100% irrelevant. This thread involves only a few players, and the same 6-7 players at most are answering to each other for the last few pages at least.

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

But who set these arbitrary definitions of "Good Build" and "Bad Build"? Because the only builds i see getting to 100 are builds that take basically no offense and just stack defenses to the moon, all the while partying in full parties in order to make up for their lack of DPS, turtling through the maps at a snails pace.

lol no.

A good build survives all situations if the player makes no major mistakes. You don't need to be an uber-tank to achieve that.

e: If what some ppl here say was true, I wonder where all the >lvl 90 HC chars came from.

Lol dude, this last post really feels like a troll.

This is a massive multiplayer online role playing game. It's meant to be enjoyed with friends.

In response to your "well then ill just stop playing for an hour until the debuff goes away":

Your just grasping at straws man. Yes, technically you can do that, and thats not an issue. But 90% of the other people will just be a little more careful mapping the rest of the 60 minutes.

Were obviously not talking about normal > cruel > begining of merc difficulty. The issue with the death penalty being too much doesn't happen until late 80's early 90's. so these r the people we are trying to benefit.

Any other time, the xp penalty is totally fine. 10%, get in back in 5 minutes. Lets take an example numbers, say at level 50, 10% is 1,500 XP. And then at level 55 10% is 2,000 XP, but due to the steep experience curve, the 10% raises exponentially relative to the experience needed to level as you get towards 80's-90's. At level 95 the 10% is probably 2,000,000 XP... Yea.. u aint getting that back in 5 minutes.

The xp penalty should be balanced towards the later levels because 10% of such a huge number of xp is a little nuts.

And can you repeat what you said about palace being worth it?

There is no way your going to solo palace at level 70. And if you did, congratz, most people are going to die on the first pull. Then they end up using all 6 portals leaving 90% of the map untouched.

And i think with Low life spc throw? People already have the choice picking dps over survivability. You are acting like the world is going to end, it wont. It will be just like it is now, but with a lot more people enjoying the fun end game map system created by GGG.