IncGamers and OnRPG reveal Vagan, Weaponmaster

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

See, I dont think this is about the economy at all, its about not making the game pathetically easy. Sure the difference quoted above is fairly massive, but how often are you finding weapons with 180% phys? Maybe once every 3 months? What is the actual potential of a 180% phys weapon? I feel like people dont really 'get' where items are at and at what point things become op. Im gnna link items again in an attempt to try and get people to see what the real state of play is regarding phs item rolls.

A binos is a serious dagger, Im getting like +26k dps doublestrike splash with a Binos, its pure facerolling everything in maps. Lets look at a Binos and a weapon with 69% phys side by side

Its not far off man, I dont lose a lot dps switching between these things, it still facerolls like crazy. Thats a 69% weapon side by side with an extremely powerful and expensive endgame unique. Is it miles away from this?

yes, but that doesnt matter, at all. That is an impossible weapon, its damage and the potential for 240%+ weapons is absolutely irrelevant when weapons can start obliterating the highest level of maps with 69% phys and a weapon like dragon hunger never, ever drops, ever, and never will.

Its not about hurting the economy, when you see me talking about the price of weapons and the price of crafting I do so as an example of their rarity and the amount of work a player has to put into the current game to acquire such an item. The question isnt what is this doing to the economy, its how much is this trivialising the gear progression in the game and the effort you need to put in to faceroll high maps. That 69% weapon absolutely trivialises the game, what would it do with 180%?

Do people really think that relatively commonly found daggers should be able to be upgraded beyond a binos for a few chaos? For anything less than double figure exalts? Come on guys, lets have some perspective here. With all respect I feel like if you think you need to be able to roll 119% phys on a weapon for a handful of chaos you dont fully understand items and their potential, no harm intended there and thats not a comment aimed at the 2 people I have quoted.

What is this 'facerolling' definition you are using? What are you basing it off of? Level 69-72 maps with blue mods? Level 74+ maps with full prefixes/suffixes including things like -max resists, amongst others? Palace with -max resists, double boss, turbo mods, etc? How fast are you clearing the maps you are putting into your definition of 'faceroll'? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm trying to first understand where you're coming from when you use this word because it's so overused along with saying this game is 'easy peasy' that I take these terms with a grain of salt.

Also, you're using daggers, which you know as well as I do are very unbalanced compared to most weapons in the game, and that they have very powerful nodes that boost them far better than almost anything else in the game. I can guarantee that the base crit chance and the wildly out of control critical hit damage that one can get will outweigh the need for higher base damage and will overcome needing Physical% Damage mods. Using them as a reason to hold back everything else that I mentioned is not a smart idea, and hopefully in this coming patch (or soon after) daggers, CHD, and what not are going to get a nice balance passover...seems that daggers are already going to have some of their power nodes taken away from initial passive tree analyzing, which leads some credit (and hope) to GGG reigning daggers in.

BUT, I am not just thinking about daggers, I am thinking about other weapons that do not have such high base crits, nor access to nicely clustered crit nodes and use CHD. Also, I am thinking about those who would want to spec into Resolute Technique, sacrificing any chance to use that juicy crit and therefore will need to rely much more heavily on higher weapon damage rolls. If they are unable to feel that they are getting value from leveling up their crafting masters and putting in the time and effort to do so to reap the benefits, then that's not a good thing. It's not about 'facerolling' to me, it's about making sure the offered values are where they should be...you believe they are too powerful, and I believe you are incorrect given what you've said.

With all due respect, snorkle, I don't think you're looking at this from the correct perspective and you've zeroed in on daggers far too much that you're blinded by how unbalanced they are. If daggers in their current state are going to be a major factor in this, if Critical Hit and Critical Hit Damage, are going to be a factor in this and holds crafting back from where it could and likely should be, then I say the real issue is with the unbalanced things and those things should be addressed. And as far as you saying 'making the game pathetically easy'...you know...for as much as I hear people saying this, why is it that I do not see and hear this more often? More often than not (and not just here on the forums) I hear people saying that they cannot find solid gear, they have trouble with higher maps and tougher mods, and when they actually do progress, it's because they end up using a FOTM build, or rely on the extremely OP crit and crit damage combo.

As far as the economy is concerned...GGG has said it themselves that they want an economy in this game and they take it into account all the time, so it does and will be a factor in how crafting is done and it will have influence on the final numbers. I'm just hoping that it isn't going to be the thing that kills it off and wrecks their hype train that they have going.

Hi

Finally the duelist master:) Irony being his name is Vagan first impression was: is he named Vegan? lol.

cheers

Snorkle is absolutely right.

I'm a casual player. All my friends are. Our damage ususally is aroumd the 10k, maybe the 20k mark, sometimes a bit more, oftentimes a lot less. We manage carefully rolled maps up to level 78. Not blue ones, but we would never do -max plus vulnerability or such bs. 80% something is enough if you ask us.

Weapons like the one Snorkle showed us are completely enough to get to this. Heck, the dagger he is showing there is better than any dagger our 9-people guild has. Our highest 2h is like 550 damage, I have a Soul taker and we have 2 Lioneye's Glares as well as a bought 5l Thicket with lots of dps. That's it. All the rest of the gear is mediocre at best. 5ls and that's it.
Call us stupid if you want, but that's all we have.

I run a shop with medium items, sometimes some higher tier uniques, and I am by far the richest of us. I can buy my gear, I have 7 toons equiped and ready to go at any time, the lowest of which is lvl 77.

We are all looking forward to this expansion because we will benefit a great deal from it, we all have gear stored that could use that one mod, be it life in the 50s, some flat phys, some crit chance, or some phys%. And here is the problem: If those rolls would be too high, two things would happen: We would stop being part of the economy, because we would use our orbs ourselves. And we would not be able to sell the medium stuff anymore, because everybody can craft better items themselves. I think GGG does not want this to happen. That's why they are very carefull with the tiers they make craftable, at least I hope so.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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tmaciak wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Thats 3200 chaos, and you might not get it, I dunno if some of you realise just how big a deal that would be to get it guaranteed f0r 30 chaos, never mind 3 chaos, holy cow.

Yea, I also afraid that another great idea will be scarified on economeh altar.

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Tanakeah wrote:

(170% - 180% ) vs. (225% - 249%)

That's still a difference of 75% - 80% for the high and low ends...that's a big difference even with the guaranteed crafting of the first ones and an ideal Emperor's roll. Now, of course, this is all in my opinion, but the main thrust of my argument still remains that if the values are set too low due to economy factors or other things, then players will not find it worth their while,

See, I dont think this is about the economy at all, its about not making the game pathetically easy. Sure the difference quoted above is fairly massive, but how often are you finding weapons with 180% phys? Maybe once every 3 months? What is the actual potential of a 180% phys weapon? I feel like people dont really 'get' where items are at and at what point things become op. Im gnna link items again in an attempt to try and get people to see what the real state of play is regarding phs item rolls.

A binos is a serious dagger, Im getting like +26k dps doublestrike splash with a Binos, its pure facerolling everything in maps. Lets look at a Binos and a weapon with 69% phys side by side

Its not far off man, I dont lose a lot dps switching between these things, it still facerolls like crazy. Thats a 69% weapon side by side with an extremely powerful and expensive endgame unique. Is it miles away from this?

yes, but that doesnt matter, at all. That is an impossible weapon, its damage and the potential for 240%+ weapons is absolutely irrelevant when weapons can start obliterating the highest level of maps with 69% phys and a weapon like dragon hunger never, ever drops, ever, and never will.

Its not about hurting the economy, when you see me talking about the price of weapons and the price of crafting I do so as an example of their rarity and the amount of work a player has to put into the current game to acquire such an item. The question isnt what is this doing to the economy, its how much is this trivialising the gear progression in the game and the effort you need to put in to faceroll high maps. That 69% weapon absolutely trivialises the game, what would it do with 180%?

Do people really think that relatively commonly found daggers should be able to be upgraded beyond a binos for a few chaos? For anything less than double figure exalts? Come on guys, lets have some perspective here. With all respect I feel like if you think you need to be able to roll 119% phys on a weapon for a handful of chaos you dont fully understand items and their potential, no harm intended there and thats not a comment aimed at the 2 people I have quoted.

If we set aside the overpowered weapon type "Dagger" for a minute, I think we can have a more meaningful discussion.

First off, I do agree with you. 180% is obviously far too high. But do you honestly think 100% is too high? Only on that one specific item did you show a case where a weapon was great with 69%, and I'll clue you in about something: Without the 69% it has four essential mods to making the dagger so strong. Without one or two of those mods it would be hardly fit for maps. So do you honestly feel that people will be finding weapons with four essential mods consistently? I don't. In fact, I think most people are probably going to alt/regal until they get flat phys and attack speed, and then craft in 90-100% IPD. At this point, they will probably have spent a minimum of 10 chaos for a decent weapon. A weapon that, on xyz a week or two into the new league, will cost… maybe 10 chaos?

So even if I can craft 100% IPD, it's not going to make the game pathetically easy. If it does, then the game is ALREADY pathetically easy because I can buy a 250 dps weapon for next to nothing. Even a week or two into a new league they are usually cheap.

TL;DR: Basically, daggers are OP and need nerfed, and crafting these mods on any other item type will definitely create good, useable weapons… but nothing that will trivialize the game in the manner you speak of. And finding a dagger with good flat phys, attack speed, crit chance, AND crit multi is not "relatively common." I think you exaggerate, and no one will craft ever if it costs more than 5-6 chaos to put a mediocre mod on an item. You should really look at xyz two weeks into a new league.

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ggnorekthx wrote:

If we set aside the overpowered weapon type "Dagger" for a minute, I think we can have a more meaningful discussion.

First off, I do agree with you. 180% is obviously far too high. But do you honestly think 100% is too high? Only on that one specific item did you show a case where a weapon was great with 69%, and I'll clue you in about something: Without the 69% it has four essential mods to making the dagger so strong. Without one or two of those mods it would be hardly fit for maps. So do you honestly feel that people will be finding weapons with four essential mods consistently? I don't. In fact, I think most people are probably going to alt/regal until they get flat phys and attack speed, and then craft in 90-100% IPD. At this point, they will probably have spent a minimum of 10 chaos for a decent weapon. A weapon that, on xyz a week or two into the new league, will cost… maybe 10 chaos?

So even if I can craft 100% IPD, it's not going to make the game pathetically easy. If it does, then the game is ALREADY pathetically easy because I can buy a 250 dps weapon for next to nothing. Even a week or two into a new league they are usually cheap.

TL;DR: Basically, daggers are OP and need nerfed, and crafting these mods on any other item type will definitely create good, useable weapons… but nothing that will trivialize the game in the manner you speak of. And finding a dagger with good flat phys, attack speed, crit chance, AND crit multi is not "relatively common." I think you exaggerate, and no one will craft ever if it costs more than 5-6 chaos to put a mediocre mod on an item. You should really look at xyz two weeks into a new league.

What he said. The dagger you are showing is a pretty lucky combination of affixes even without percent IPD. The whole crafting stuff was supposed to improve access to mid-tier items without making it much easier to get GG gears.

As snorkle said, dragon hunter in an impossible item, and obviously there is no way anyone should be able to craft these. The torment sever dagger he showed, however, is all right, but not too good (if you forget for a second that daggers are extremele OP shit, GGG fix this please, of course).

And that, as far as I remember, was the idea: make mid-tier items more accessible. Most certainly, this will lead to higher density of such items on the market, but that does not seem to be much of a problem: good items are available for 10-15c in 2-3 weeks after the league's start anyways (perhaps not 10-15, but 20-25, whoopie-dee-doo, economy will be so ruined because of this...). So ~100% increase does not seem to be such a big deal.

As a possible compromise, it would be nice to maybe additionally cap possible level of craftable affix inversely to levels of present affixes, i.e. to prohibit 100% phyis increase for items that already have insane flat phys increase or/and attack speed increase and so on. In such manner it's still possible to craft good mid-tier gears and not possible at all to craft near-GG stuff. Not sure if that's technically possible though...

I don't know if that was suggested before, but I'd really like it if the crafted mods prevented an item from being mirrored, especially for jewellry.

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t_golgari wrote:

We would stop being part of the economy, because we would use our orbs ourselves.

Is not preliminary use of orb to be used such way? For me, it would be the best thing could happen to this game.

This trailer was a bit bland , compared to the previous that GGG released .

ME GUSTA.

No, seriously, this is rad.

:}}}}}}} 7 DAYS!