Spell Echo

How does Spell Echo works with Discharge. 1st times uses all Charges and then are no charges left for the 2nd cast?

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willeke wrote:

How does Spell Echo works with Discharge. 1st times uses all Charges and then are no charges left for the 2nd cast?

correct

How does it interact with shock? Say I cast an echoed Ice Spear, it crits, does the second spell already benefit from the shock debuff?

In my opinion spell echo is overpowered, because its mana cost are too low.

If you compare faster casting(FC) and spell echo(SE) you have those DPS increases:

FC: ~+33% (assuming you have 150% castspeed, 100 base + 50% increase from skills and items. 150->200=+33%)
SE: +~54% (1,71 * 0,9. 1,71 is to compensate for the quality bonus of +10% spelldamage)

There is nothing wrong with these numbers. FC has less DPS increase, but also it has the advantage of not rooting in place and be more "responsive" overall.

Now the mana costs:

Faster casts usually lead to a higher mana consumption because of more skills used (a characteristic a lot of supportgem like "+melee damage" do not have)

FC: ~160% (33% more casts X 120% multiplier)
SE: ~100%

Yes, Spellecho actually has does not increase overall manacosts!

How?

Simply because you get 2 casts. I did the math very carefully, because first I made a mistake, but 100% is right now.

Or in other words:

If you cast a base 100 mana spell(1 cast per 1 sec base) with faster casting over 10 sec you will end up with manacosts of 1596, while casting the same spell with spellecho instead over 10 sec would cost 1001 mana.

So, I think increasing the mana costs of spellecho from 130% to something like 170% would be balanced.
You also have to consider, that the "root in place" problem becomes insignificant as you get more and more castspeed. Also FC and SE are multiplicative and having both of them scales very well (actually FC makes the root problem insignificant)

In addition FC becomes even worse, the more "increased castspeed" you get (less relative DPS increase and even higher mana costs), while SE is always multiplicative.

i'd like to point out that faster casting is "increased" based modifier, meaning it adds to passives and gear. so in your example of having 50% boost from passives and equip then plus a 30% FC = 80% total cast speed boost.

a 60% more cast speed spell echo gem would turn the 50% into an 80% via 50 * 1.6

using both is the fun part =p (50 +30) * 1.6 = 128 -> +128% cast speed boost total.

but yeah faster casting costs too much and gives you the freedom while spell echo costs nothing virtually and holds you to your commitment and a tiny damage loss.

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a 60% more cast speed spell echo gem would turn the 50% into an 80% via 50 * 1.6

Sry, but I think you made a mistake there.

The "more" multiplier also includes the base castspeed(which is 100%)

so if you have 100%(base) + 50%(increased) and use a 60% more castspeed gem on this, you will get:

(100% + 50%) * 1,6 = 240% and not like in your example:

100% + 50% * 1,6 = 180%

Or am I wrong? I am pretty sure the "more" modifier works this way.

yes thats how "more" modifier works for damage boosts, i'm just not completely familiar with cast speed math. its explained relatively clearly on the wiki (info hasn't changed for a year) but it doesn't seem to have tried echo but it does factor in a spell's cast interval.

the way i assumed felt more appropriate and is less in the end, better to under guess than over guess. =p i don't have a character that pushes fast casting to test in game. but using both gems has a more noticeable effect... there's also the info panel or mouseover of skill in bar for getting updated cast speed.

i'm going to indirectly bump my suggestion here by saying that, despite making my own builds every season since open beta (usually multiple builds) i have never come across a gem that required as little consideration for its advantages and disadvantages as Spell Echo. The suggestion thread has been bashed by people who fear nerfs to their casters (and don't understand that this can be compensated for) but this just shows that SE is perceived as central to any self-cast build.

Which is a pitty, since SE, in my opinion, adds very little excitement while planning or playing a build.

edit: the suggestion does not claim to be the perfect solution neither numerically nor conceptually.

CWDT + Spell Echo + Enduring Cry = 1 cast of Enduring Cry

Is this intentional?

EDIT
It looks like any spell linked to CWDT and Spell Echo only casts once.