Spell Echo

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Shaeltal wrote:

Is this intentionally not supposed to work with Traps either? This makes me sad.

T_T

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ssebastiann wrote:

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Shaeltal wrote:

Is this intentionally not supposed to work with Traps either? This makes me sad.

T_T

Do you realize how OP that would be? It would scale multiplicative with multitrap, since both are multi hit. Lemme just cast a skill 18 times in 2 seconds!

Edit: Same reason this gem doesn't work for totems. A single cast to set up 2 totems that have a firepower of 4 totems, and 2 casts to set 3 totems that have a firepower of 6 totems.

And what if you use traps AND totems?

So after testing this new support gem a lot with ice nova ill give my thoughts (since maybe not a lot of people play ice nova builds in high level maps, some people will find it interesting)

At first the gem felt very clunky to me with ice nova, because it would force me to cast twice and stay in one spot, which was pretty annoying. I was using a 5 link ice nova/conc effect/spell echo/added chaos/added cold setup. My tooltip dps went up maybe 2-3% with a level 10 echo vs level 18 faster casting, so I didn't feel like the clunkiness of forcing me to cast twice was really worth the slight increase in dps.

Eventually I changed to a faster casting/spell echo/ice nova/conc effect/ added chaos setup and really enjoyed it a lot more. My dps was roughly the same but ice nova just felt a lot more smooth. It gave me a lot more opportunities to crit (and therefore freeze) everything around me.

As far as ice nova goes, this gem is not going to make this skill that much better in the long run, the skill feels a little bit smoother and my dps went up maybe 5% total, so nothing game changing.

Also the other obvious thing is that your mana will feel a bit better with this gem since the 2nd cast from the echo will not cost you mana (although I think that's been mentioned in this thread already)

Level 1 Spell Echo is better than level 3 EMPOWER!!

Ok, maybe that's an overstatement and it's not always true, but..
I'm level 50-ish using Arc(lvl 10-ish). Just looking at the tooltip dps(which I know is far from the final word) I've noted that:
Faster Casting is better than +1 level, but worse than +2 level.
Spell Echo is clearly better than +2 level
(i've used items that increase the level of gems, not the actual empower)

This may scale completly differently at higher levels, but right now it kind of seems quite broken to me.

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Rubik87 wrote:

Level 1 Spell Echo is better than level 3 EMPOWER!!

Ok, maybe that's an overstatement and it's not always true

It's always true for direct damage spells.

Level 1 Echo = 1.35 multiplier
Level 3 Empower = 1.09 ^ 2 = 1.188 multiplier

The only meaningful drawback is meeting the damage threshold to apply status effects on bosses.

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Kadajko wrote:

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ssebastiann wrote:

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Shaeltal wrote:

Is this intentionally not supposed to work with Traps either? This makes me sad.

T_T

Do you realize how OP that would be? It would scale multiplicative with multitrap, since both are multi hit. Lemme just cast a skill 18 times in 2 seconds!

Edit: Same reason this gem doesn't work for totems. A single cast to set up 2 totems that have a firepower of 4 totems, and 2 casts to set 3 totems that have a firepower of 6 totems.

And what if you use traps AND totems?

Meanwhile, the spectral throw/barrage CoC build in your party is wiping the screen before you even have a chance to throw down traps/totems.

A single spectral throw will cast what looks like a long continuous wave of fireballs and arctic breath. Totems not being affected by traps is understandable as they have no cooldown And can continuously cast repeatedly. Traps however have a cooldown of 4 seconds. Spell traps don't even compare to CoC or the currently ridiculous Arc+Spell Echo builds.

Don't forget also that multiple traps also has a massive 40% LESS damage modifier. Some math for emphasis here;

Say you have an ice nova that does 100 damage, flat. Multiple traps means you'll "cast" it three times.

100 (base damage) x 1.15 (trap support lvl1) x .6 (Multiple trap support) = 69.

Multiple trap will cast three times, so we need to multiply 69 x 3 = 207. So we're not really casting 3 times, we're casting 2.07 times in .5 sconds, which could be read as an effective cast speed of ~.25s per cast. This sounds great, until you realize that you have a 4 second cooldown for each charge, have to position yourself close to melee range if you want all of the novas to hit (they won't if you have default AoE size), and pay for the massive mana cost multipliers.

On the other hand, you never have to worry about CB or reflect. But you also can't leech to keep yourself alive, so yiu either 1) Kite and regen or 2) Rely on the limited chatges

100 x 3 = 300. (Assuming all the novas even overlap three times to deal damage three times to the same target.)

Now, factor in that -40% Less modifier. If you're doing 40% less, then you're actually dealing 60% damage, so multiply our damage number by 0.6.

300 x .6 = 180. We're dealing a final damage figure of 180, up from our base of 100. In essence, Multiple Traps gives us a final damage multiplier of 1.8, or the same as casting 1.8 times. Echo doesn't even double that due to it having a damage modifier of 10% Less.

If I remember correctly, traps take half a second as base time to be thrown and armed before they trigger, so two casts in succession is roughly 3.3 casts in .75 seconds. Still doesn't compare to CoC or self cast.

Insane dps boost. At level 6 / 0 qual it out dpsd my 20/22 crit dam !!

Great addition to us self casters, but would it be too much to ask for a independant aim for the cast? I rarely need to cast fireball at the same direktion twice, being forced to is Just annoying ( please change it so the second cast goes where you currently aim)

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xenogfan43 wrote:

This is the most powerful non-melee support gem in the game, period.

I can only think of a few situations in which you would not want to use spell echo, and in every other event, casting a spell now requires echo to be efficient. Not using this support is tantamount to using a 3 link instead of a 5 link because you were bored with being almighty.

Even if this gem was 30% less damage it would still be vastly overpowered due to shock mechanics and how its interactions with certain spells work (read: incinerate, flameblast, storm call, all spells with cooldowns).

The mana multiplier of 130 means you can get two spells off for a total of 130% the original cost, at a negligible damage decrease, while also casting them MUCH faster. Even at 200% multiplier, this would still be incredibly overpowered.

Suffice to say, this gem is now mandatory for all casters, along with faster casting (in links that aren't strained for functionality) and I can only assume this was GGG's intent, as it is far more required to use this than it is to use multistrike. I don't think any spell builds will forego spell echo, even after it gets nerfed into the ground, so we'd best get used to the jerky cast animations.

On the bright side, now nobody needs to play melee anymore, so desync is much less of a problem than it was before. I sound angry and pessimistic here, but I'm actually really glad spell echo was added, it makes being interrupted while casting (which was a huge problem) a lot less frequent, so it reduces the irritation I experience while playing any non-life non-chayula'd caster quite significantly.

Tested on an 82 low life arcer and a 49 incinerator, I doubt the results will be different on anything else.

All in all: crazy overpowered, mandatory for almost all spells, would still be broken at 200% mult and 30% less dmg.

I don't agree. Yes, it is powerful, and one could call it mandatory for spell-casters, but the same goes for Multistrike for melee-attackers.

I think it's fine as it is. It finally bridges the gap between attackers and casters somewhat. Casters face a hard upper limit to their dps due to the lack of insane scaling with top-notch weapons. Mana and speed also are a problem to casters. Attack speed is much more available than cast speed, and to sustain a rapid spell cast the caster needed to use an extra non-damage support which means giving up even more damage. With proper gear, attackers can even do without Life Leech, which is another advantage for attackers. Not to mention aura's, casters can't use them for scaling either. Yes, i know, spells always hit, which is an advantage for casters, but the much more easily obtained attack speed coupled with a relatively easily obtained chance to hit above 80% makes up for that.

So imo it's perfectly fine as it is. I play a lot in 4+ parties, with the top players from our guild. Mostly attackers, a few casters. Until Spell Echo can out, the casters played a subordinate role, good for supporting the attackers by deploying some status ailments but hardly capable of effectively clearing monsters when separated from the group. Now, using Spell Echo, my Incinerate finally reaches stage 3 before the attackers already cleared everything and ran off to the next pack, while still sustainable mana-wise. As my guild leader noted: "Hey, you're actually doing something now instead of running behind the group!"

If something is OP it's attack-based low life mechanics, not Spell Echo. If seen low-life attackers reach 200k+ raw dps, can anyone theorize a build reaching 200k+ dps using spells? And I mean raw dps, not dependent on shock or other ailments as they have no meaning when facing the real thing: bosses.