Remove only tabs converted instead of getting new tabs

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ventiman wrote:

so basicly you are upset because you use remove tabs as regular tabs and thought you are really clever...
and now all the stored junk you had in a remove tab converted to a real tab and the estimated new tab is nonexistent

you know those things are called remove tabs for a reason ?


this comes close to the guy who complained that malchais mask doesnt work after changing zone and he has to regear it everytime to snashot his auras and called it a bug it should work all the time in his opinion

imho ggg should give a deadline to remove items everything that is not removed is deleted

You don't bring your old car in to a new car dealer to buy a new premium car, only to drive off the lot in your new car and then discover your money really just bought you your old car with a new paint job. That'd be fine if you were told up front that the dealership changed what buying a new car meant. But a hidden change is not right.

I'm kinda confused about this whole situation really, and I understand that it would be too much work to fix this now for GGG since people who got their remove-only tabs converted might have moved some items around already.

But If same thing will happen to further purchases I won't buy any more tabs for sure! The reason I buy the is to avoid sorting items and I want "extra stash tabs" as it's said in description. I don't want my old tabs full of random crap to be converted just to be forced to sort it.

I've got a response from customers support that it's intended functionality right now that it may (or may not? may randomly?) upgrade remove-only tabs into fully functional tabs. And as one-time only customer service gesture they've added 12 tabs to my account(2 of which transformed my last 2 remaining remove-only tabs into fully functional and I only got 10 extra tabs) but that's fine for now. Then I checked standard league tabs - surprise, didn't get any extra tabs there, don't care about that league atm really but what if some day I will?

I'm cool with current solution but if GGG won't revert the change of upgrading remove-only tabs I'm not buying more.

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Sheriff_K wrote:

It doesn't hurt you in anyway

In theory at least, it does actually. All those extra remove-only tabs still require storage space on a server somewhere. GGG has to pay for that storage. And the bandwidth to transfer the information about the contents of those tabs to the player every time they open their stash(as well as any backup servers etc).

All of that money could be spent on something else instead, potentially improving the game. Now how much that extra storage costs is a different question and it may be that the amount it costs is trivial enough to not actually affect anything, but probably only GGG knows that for sure. At some point though, they probably will have to put some sort of time limit on them. Some people have hundreds, perhaps even thousands of tabs, so having remove only tabs from 6 seasons ago will eventually add up.

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Hodari wrote:

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Sheriff_K wrote:

It doesn't hurt you in anyway

In theory at least, it does actually...

you are talking about that extra storage like it's HD movies, when it's just couple MB of data in total. And if it's coded correctly - it doesn't take much data transfer anyway. And it wouldn't solve a problem for existing remove-only tabs for those who bought a lot of tabs already. It's either greedy marketing move to force hoarders buy double/triple amount of stash tabs they didn't need or a mistake. And as we know GGG was never spotted as greedy company I bet on mistake which they can't revert at this moment but will most likely do in near future.

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kefirhl wrote:

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Hodari wrote:

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Sheriff_K wrote:

It doesn't hurt you in anyway

In theory at least, it does actually...

you are talking about that extra storage like it's HD movies, when it's just couple MB of data in total. And if it's coded correctly - it doesn't take much data transfer anyway. And it wouldn't solve a problem for existing remove-only tabs for those who bought a lot of tabs already. It's either greedy marketing move to force hoarders buy double/triple amount of stash tabs they didn't need or a mistake. And as we know GGG was never spotted as greedy company I bet on mistake which they can't revert at this moment but will most likely do in near future.

Like I said, it probably is more theoretical rather than something that actually makes a huge difference, but I suspect it is still a lot more data than you might think. Keep in mind we're not talking about just ONE person's tabs here. We're talking about EVERYONE who has ever played the game.

No idea how the items are actually stored, but just as a rough estimate...

Figure a rare can have up to 6 properties. Some of those have multiple mods associated with them, so it might need to have 8 or even 10 mods stored. Assume 1 byte to specify which mod and another for the value on each one. Then a few more for the item's name, ilvl, sockets, applied mtx effects and so on...probably at least 50 bytes per item.

Each tab can hold up to 144 items, though most will probably not be completely full and will have larger items in them, so assume 20 or so per tab, giving roughly 1kb of data per tab as a lower bound.

A lot of people will probably have just the 4 starting tabs, but some will have hundreds or even thousands. Some(especially the more serious players who will also be the ones with the most tabs) will also be playing in both 4 month leagues, meaning double the number of tabs carrying over per season. So figure at least 20 tabs per person on average.

And how many accounts have been created by now? I don't know the exact number, but safe to assume a few million at least. Even someone who just tried the game out for a week during the first 4 month league and hasn't been back since will still have those tabs sitting around. So there's probably a few million accounts.

tl:dr - Those stash tabs are taking up at least several gigabytes of data, not "a couple mb at most". All of which has to be backed up multiple times, synchronized between all the servers etc. Again, this may still be more of a theoretical difference rather than anything significant, given how much space hard drives have now, but it's at least worth considering that at some point, it COULD affect us. Only GGG knows for sure what the costs involved are.

I'll agree though that if they did intentionally make a change like this, it was not the best way to solve the problem and they should at the very least have let us know about it. If it is(or ever becomes) an issue, I'd be fine with them setting a time limit on how long the tabs last as long as it's long enough to give plenty of time to remove stuff(at least a couple months).

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kefirhl wrote:

you are talking about that extra storage like it's HD movies, when it's just couple MB of data in total. And if it's coded correctly - it doesn't take much data transfer anyway. And it wouldn't solve a problem for existing remove-only tabs for those who bought a lot of tabs already. It's either greedy marketing move to force hoarders buy double/triple amount of stash tabs they didn't need or a mistake. And as we know GGG was never spotted as greedy company I bet on mistake which they can't revert at this moment but will most likely do in near future.

GGG isn't forcing them to keep X amount of remove only tabs open, it's called a >remove< only tab for a reason if it was intended as "permanent free storage of your mostly unwanted items" it would be called differently.

By converting Remove Only tabs to normal / premium tabs you're not actually losing anything, you're gaining the ability to remove AND place items in that tab.

Granted they could have said something but I don't see it as a problem personally.

Every item on your characters and in all of your stash space takes up far less space than you might think. All items can be easily stored at text and text is highly compressible.

Empty spaces in a tab take up no space so all those race rewards tabs take up next to nothing. A tab full of currency probably takes up the most space.

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Melzas wrote:

A tab full of currency probably takes up the most space.

A tab full of rings and amulets would be worse.

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archiadus wrote:

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kefirhl wrote:

you are talking about that extra storage like it's HD movies, when it's just couple MB of data in total. And if it's coded correctly - it doesn't take much data transfer anyway. And it wouldn't solve a problem for existing remove-only tabs for those who bought a lot of tabs already. It's either greedy marketing move to force hoarders buy double/triple amount of stash tabs they didn't need or a mistake. And as we know GGG was never spotted as greedy company I bet on mistake which they can't revert at this moment but will most likely do in near future.

GGG isn't forcing them to keep X amount of remove only tabs open, it's called a >remove< only tab for a reason if it was intended as "permanent free storage of your mostly unwanted items" it would be called differently.

Yes, it's called Remove Only. Where does it say "You MUST remove"? Remove only just means you can't add anything. It doesn't mean you can't keep things in there.

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archiadus wrote:

By converting Remove Only tabs to normal / premium tabs you're not actually losing anything, you're gaining the ability to remove AND place items in that tab.

Granted they could have said something but I don't see it as a problem personally.

I'm loosing my money or my time, or both.