Points Sale News Update and Returning Daily Deals

In general, if a system is not completly broken an ordinary AH will suffice and balance it'self.

"

Obscuritas wrote:

Yes Trade chat is way 2 full of spam, i agree on that.
But there are several ways of trading in PoE:

1: Whenerver I want to sell currency wich is mostly fused 4 ex. I check the notice board if there is anyone bying and offering a good deal (like 1 ex for 37).

2: If I can´t find anyehing I just keep farming and take a look later on, only then if there still isn´t any notice I go to trade chat and start moving up with my offer form 38+.
I ususally end up sellign for 40.

3: If I look for Items I go to poe.xyz and look there for a nice buyout deal and since its no urgent thing I can wait some time for them to write me back on my offer.
Effektively sides like poe.xyz and forums are the Ah of poe, esp the first one since you can search for item properties directly.

D3´s econy crashed only after the first month or so, hyperinflating and deflating at the same time (gold inflation, item inflation wich ie eff. a deflation).
Gold inflation was because of the huge mass of botters and item inflation was because of the shrinking playerbase, botters and dupes aswell.
Not onl that mut there was absolutely no use for the gold other than trading wich cause it to stockpile since there was no item sink either.
Poe does have a currency sink wich varries in its effektiveness but is much more effektive then D3´s, so adding an Ah might not prove fatal to the game like it was with D3.

Quite a few peop0le were dissapointed with D3 and moved to PoE, many if not most of them blame the Ah wich took all the grinding fun out of the game.
Fakt is: You don´t grind gear in D3, you grind gold leaving 90% if even the rare items on the ground since you allready know that the prob. of them being worth even just 1m gold is so low it does not even justify the time you need to pick it up or even go to town to scrap it.
Most experienced players I played with only picked up Gold/ Amulets / rings and uniques.
I never ever even found a single Item I used direcly for my main char even after hundrets of hours of endgame farming and I picked up all the trash rares on the ground.
Anyway to make it short: In D3 most of you gear came form the Ah, later on you craftet some aswell wich also took hundrets of millions (no exageration) and you got the gold form the Ah for that aswell.
I had horrible drop luck compared to most of my friends still most of my gold came from the Ah, rather then from farmin/selling to npc´s.
In PoE all my gear, exept for my chest comes wa found by myself and that does feel a hell lot more sattisfying, ofc I could play SF in D3 but ignoring an implemented feature where they sell weapons with 10x the dps of the best one I ever found for a couple thousand is also bullshit imo.
I like to trade for some items I haven´t had the luck of finding, its part of the game genre after all, BUT I HATE TO GO SHOPPING EVERY SINGLE SLOT! Wich si essentially how you gear up in D3.

Like it or not, many many people dissaprove of a Ah in PoE, and while they may be right doesn´t matter if its justified or not, the point is GGG would displease a very large portion of their playerbase by implementing one, thats it.
And thats why we will never get to see one.

On a nother node: I would like to see another ingame alternative to trade chat since it fell prey to endless spam...

Well, d3 enabled people with real money to purchase items. I know a few that set up servers hosting 48 instances on each and then botted. In the evning they sold the items manually. That way they made a lot of money on d3. Being able to make money on a game would be like setting up a sign for botters to come since they can actually easily make real cash.

So I would say d3 is a bad example to compare to. I would go so far as to call that a useless comparison and ask that you compare it to another large game.

Most games I've seen that makes use of an AH has worked out.


From your description it looks like your happy with how it works and make use of an out side webapp poe.xyz to make your life easier.
That's hypocrisy.


Your also missing the point with how poe economy works, there is no gold. There are items, items that are actually useful for the players.

If poe wants to avoid botting, and people purchasing stuff for real money outside of their systems all they need to do is implement a logging system that logs each deal. If ether party gives away something of great value to another party for nothing or very little in return, well, that would be easy to find.

"

cronus wrote:

thanks for the hint with elder scrolls online, i'm very excited how their plan with guild stores will work out in the long run and how they want to fight rmt trading. but my inner voice tells me that restricting crafting and trading on guilds is enforcing rmt, except they kill any other form of item transfer.
but decentralized trading is a good idea that ggg is about to exactly implement with public stash tabs.
and i never said i like the current methods of trading and deal making. ggg shouldn't be reliant on external websites for people to find or sell their gear. there only should be some timeout before a deal can be finished.

I actually do not think decentralized is needed. If a system is not built broken it will balance itself. If decentralizeing would help a system, then I think they are breaking up one big problem into many smaller problems and thus do not really solve anything. But it could be interesting anyway and give a more personal feeling.

"

whats your suggestion to equalize the efforts of people actually playing the game and people just flipping items on the market? at the moment most traders gathered ingame currency in an amount which gives other players the impression, just playing the game doesn't lead to success.

Same could be said about real life, day traders. I do not think it matters. If someone finds that fun, let them.. as long as someone does not control 90% of the market... which also is not allowed in real life if it becomes a monopoly.



On a separate note. Think about poe as an endless mine. You can mine it for stuff as much as you want. This is how the game works. Then of course the game will have currency inflation. The currency in this game however can be used, that might keep the inflation in check somewhat. On the other hand, currency is used to get items and items to get currency and both of these resources are "mined". That might lead to keeping inflation in check as well.

"

MiniMinhMo wrote:

EBONY WEAPON EFFECT AND EBONY FOOTPRINTS EFFECT PLEASE! :D

I agree.. =]

"

IceDread wrote:

In general, if a system is not completly broken an ordinary AH will suffice and balance it'self.

"

Obscuritas wrote:

Yes Trade chat is way 2 full of spam, i agree on that.
But there are several ways of trading in PoE:

1: Whenerver I want to sell currency wich is mostly fused 4 ex. I check the notice board if there is anyone bying and offering a good deal (like 1 ex for 37).

2: If I can´t find anyehing I just keep farming and take a look later on, only then if there still isn´t any notice I go to trade chat and start moving up with my offer form 38+.
I ususally end up sellign for 40.

3: If I look for Items I go to poe.xyz and look there for a nice buyout deal and since its no urgent thing I can wait some time for them to write me back on my offer.
Effektively sides like poe.xyz and forums are the Ah of poe, esp the first one since you can search for item properties directly.

D3´s econy crashed only after the first month or so, hyperinflating and deflating at the same time (gold inflation, item inflation wich ie eff. a deflation).
Gold inflation was because of the huge mass of botters and item inflation was because of the shrinking playerbase, botters and dupes aswell.
Not onl that mut there was absolutely no use for the gold other than trading wich cause it to stockpile since there was no item sink either.
Poe does have a currency sink wich varries in its effektiveness but is much more effektive then D3´s, so adding an Ah might not prove fatal to the game like it was with D3.

Quite a few peop0le were dissapointed with D3 and moved to PoE, many if not most of them blame the Ah wich took all the grinding fun out of the game.
Fakt is: You don´t grind gear in D3, you grind gold leaving 90% if even the rare items on the ground since you allready know that the prob. of them being worth even just 1m gold is so low it does not even justify the time you need to pick it up or even go to town to scrap it.
Most experienced players I played with only picked up Gold/ Amulets / rings and uniques.
I never ever even found a single Item I used direcly for my main char even after hundrets of hours of endgame farming and I picked up all the trash rares on the ground.
Anyway to make it short: In D3 most of you gear came form the Ah, later on you craftet some aswell wich also took hundrets of millions (no exageration) and you got the gold form the Ah for that aswell.
I had horrible drop luck compared to most of my friends still most of my gold came from the Ah, rather then from farmin/selling to npc´s.
In PoE all my gear, exept for my chest comes wa found by myself and that does feel a hell lot more sattisfying, ofc I could play SF in D3 but ignoring an implemented feature where they sell weapons with 10x the dps of the best one I ever found for a couple thousand is also bullshit imo.
I like to trade for some items I haven´t had the luck of finding, its part of the game genre after all, BUT I HATE TO GO SHOPPING EVERY SINGLE SLOT! Wich si essentially how you gear up in D3.

Like it or not, many many people dissaprove of a Ah in PoE, and while they may be right doesn´t matter if its justified or not, the point is GGG would displease a very large portion of their playerbase by implementing one, thats it.
And thats why we will never get to see one.

On a nother node: I would like to see another ingame alternative to trade chat since it fell prey to endless spam...

Well, d3 enabled people with real money to purchase items. I know a few that set up servers hosting 48 instances on each and then botted. In the evning they sold the items manually. That way they made a lot of money on d3. Being able to make money on a game would be like setting up a sign for botters to come since they can actually easily make real cash.

So I would say d3 is a bad example to compare to. I would go so far as to call that a useless comparison and ask that you compare it to another large game.

Most games I've seen that makes use of an AH has worked out.


From your description it looks like your happy with how it works and make use of an out side webapp poe.xyz to make your life easier.
That's hypocrisy.


Your also missing the point with how poe economy works, there is no gold. There are items, items that are actually useful for the players.

If poe wants to avoid botting, and people purchasing stuff for real money outside of their systems all they need to do is implement a logging system that logs each deal. If ether party gives away something of great value to another party for nothing or very little in return, well, that would be easy to find.

"

cronus wrote:

thanks for the hint with elder scrolls online, i'm very excited how their plan with guild stores will work out in the long run and how they want to fight rmt trading. but my inner voice tells me that restricting crafting and trading on guilds is enforcing rmt, except they kill any other form of item transfer.
but decentralized trading is a good idea that ggg is about to exactly implement with public stash tabs.
and i never said i like the current methods of trading and deal making. ggg shouldn't be reliant on external websites for people to find or sell their gear. there only should be some timeout before a deal can be finished.

I actually do not think decentralized is needed. If a system is not built broken it will balance itself. If decentralizeing would help a system, then I think they are breaking up one big problem into many smaller problems and thus do not really solve anything. But it could be interesting anyway and give a more personal feeling.

"

whats your suggestion to equalize the efforts of people actually playing the game and people just flipping items on the market? at the moment most traders gathered ingame currency in an amount which gives other players the impression, just playing the game doesn't lead to success.

Same could be said about real life, day traders. I do not think it matters. If someone finds that fun, let them.. as long as someone does not control 90% of the market... which also is not allowed in real life if it becomes a monopoly.



On a separate note. Think about poe as an endless mine. You can mine it for stuff as much as you want. This is how the game works. Then of course the game will have currency inflation. The currency in this game however can be used, that might keep the inflation in check somewhat. On the other hand, currency is used to get items and items to get currency and both of these resources are "mined". That might lead to keeping inflation in check as well.

No D3 is a good example.
The point is that many who played D2 got shocked at what the game was turned into at D3.
The Ah wasn´t the real issue, wich I did point ou btw...
But that doesn´t change the fakt that most blame the Ah (well there was the droprates adjustment and all).



I can explain people all day long how stockmarkets work and why we need them, at the end they are not gonna change their opinion in the least bit.
In the worst case calling me a heartless economist ^^.

But yes unlike what Blizzard kept preaching I do think the implementation of the RmAH in the game was not a very bright idea.
They may be right that 3rd party websides used to sell stuff in D2 aswell and they tried to lessen their influence.
But I think they forgot the part where rm trade that used to be banned now suddenly became an official part of the game and therefor much more frequent.


Conclusion:

As I said be4, there is quite a number of Ah haters in this game.
Don´t believe me? Type: "This game really needs an Ah" in the general, sit back and reap your troll harvest.
For now I think the easiest step would be to separate trade chat (currency/items 4 starters) or allow players to select a certain Item type or even name in Tc, like: "maces 2h, 5l min" or "BoR" "Fb, min dmg ..."

Actually I am on your side, I have nothing against a proper Ah in this game but there need to be certain regulations that D3 missed:
- no reselling items for a certain time, allow dropping/putting in guild stash (item donation), unleess its orbs ofc.
- Both the potential buyer and the seller have to be online to meet up and trade, to keep a certain personal touch.

Those 2 would be my conditions

If the codes are giftable what is really to stop peoples gentleman agreements to get a code for x item(s). It sounds like it could be similar to the way eve has their PLEX which can be sold in game and traded around. Some people really want to get into the game faster through items and if the revenue is still passing through GGG then it does not seem quite as bad.

The deal with eve was people were buying time cards and trading them before it was legal to do so, it wasn't guaranteed since you could get a bad code. Eve internalized it so the trades were made in game. They may still happen out of game but there is a legal way for it.

In that way if POE had something similar you might be able to turn the points into a currency and trade them directly.

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0xFADE wrote:

If the codes are giftable what is really to stop peoples gentleman agreements to get a code for x item(s).

time. as i understood it you can only exchange az gift cards this week.

edit: and chris' fn ban hammer. although people insist, it's turns into plastic when it comes to ban time players...

"

IceDread wrote:

I actually do not think decentralized is needed. If a system is not built broken it will balance itself. If decentralizeing would help a system, then I think they are breaking up one big problem into many smaller problems and thus do not really solve anything.

as a game master you want a market where game items have normal, stable prices, if they're too expensive, players will stop playing because they can't afford them, if they're to cheap people get what they want too easily, get bored and quit earlier.

traders are interested in an unstable market because they then make more money flipping items.

a centralized trade market makes it easy for players to compare actual prices and so keeps them more stable which is good but it makes it also easier for traders to influence the market because they can concentrate on one point.

so what would be ideal is a mixture of both, a tool which gives people a price overview over all items on offer and a decentralized market where they can buy it after some effort like joining a guild, doing some time consuming things like place a bidding for a day and so on.

the teso guild store idea isn't the worst. but as i said, you would have to prevent players from exchanging items directly to fight rmt which is a too big drawback.

"

Obscuritas wrote:

I can explain people all day long how stockmarkets work and why we need them, at the end they are not gonna change their opinion in the least bit.
In the worst case calling me a heartless economist ^^.

it's extremely off topic (sry mods) but imho stock markets could only work if you ban institutional investors from using it. as long this is the case it's a one way road from the pockets of small scale investors into the pockets of the big players.

to get the corner back to the game: if you have hundreds of exalts and chaos it's easy to throw one of them at a time on the market to lower their price.
you just need to create 2 accounts and equip one with exalts, the other one with chaos. then you start selling one currency for the other until the price drops at which point you start buying that currency with the other account.
it's good for your strategy if you accompany it with forum post like: "can somebody tell me why exalts go for only 15-20 chaos now? are people crazy?".

market concentration is always bad.

"

IceDread wrote:

Same could be said about real life, day traders. I do not think it matters. If someone finds that fun, let them.. as long as someone does not control 90% of the market... which also is not allowed in real life if it becomes a monopoly.

had a good laugh, thx. the richest 60 people on earth hoard half the money on earth, you know that, right?

You can put an In-Game Trading System in Path of Exiles without it ruining the economy. The issue that occurred with Diablo 3's In-Game system (besides real money being involved) is that it provided too much items to players, the players were not able to consume them fast enough. This created a huge inflation of both currency value as well and deflation in item value. There is a easy way to get around this flaw.

For Path of Exiles, create an In-Game Trading System (In game shops) with natural limitations that will still create a time sink for players, but allow an ease of trading to still occur. This is the difficult part, you need to have it so players spend almost just the same amount of time trading before as they would now in the new system, but still make it so it doesn't seem utterly pointless. Here is a proposition I think which could fulfill these specifications.

Limiting Ease of Use
No matter how you make the UI, you can not make it so players can instantly find everything they want and as much as they want. In saying this, it still needs to be in a very simple format. Keep the forums as is, let players use poe.xyz.is still. Those players shouldn't lose that advantage. All we are doing here is letting the casual player the opportunity to sell items.

It would be impossible to tell players they shouldn't be able to search for specific items they want, so let them. However limit searches. If players can specify the search of certain items (or the name of an item) let them only do it so many times a day (if an item shows up for their results of course.) For the sellers themselves, limit the amount of items that can be listed.


Here comes the interesting part. Do not let the players see every item they searched for listed next to each other. When a player does a single item search, all they are shown are the shops they are in. It is up to the player to pick the shop they want to use. This will prevent players from doing very quick price comparisons and create a time sink for players that they have to go through. This time sink can be in the form of a few ways.
- First, you could force the player to clear a certain area solo with a boss blocking the way (scaled to the player.) If they fail to clear the area, they have to wait certain amount of time before being able to go to trade.

- This time sink could be in the form of amount of monsters killed during normal play. When a player kills a monster they gain trading time to be put towards trading (clearing a map would instantly kill up 3 trades vs clearning to piety would be 2 trades for example.) This would of course be an artificial time sink, but that is the point (again, searching amounts is limited.)

Preventing Abuse

With any system, preventing abuse of the system is a top priority. Limiting so many searches per account would just mean players will make multiple accounts. There are a few ways of helping address this issue.

First, as stated just recently, having players clear a certain area (or just monsters for trade time) could be a way to make players use strong characters to trade. However, if you scaled the battle to the player, they could just make cheap strong low lvl characters. Why not have that Time Sink scale be scaled to the item level itself, rather then the player? The scale could be the strength of the monsters of you look at the first example I used above, or simply the amount of experience the monsters give. That way clearing low level monsters would pervent new characters from getting high level items, but still let low level character to get low level items.

You could also restrict players to only be able to search for item levels that are at least the level of their own highest level character.


New Item Shop Oppertunities
Anyway you look at this In-Game Trading system, you can see all the Item Shop ideas pop right up. They won't make anyone more powerful, they won't give players unfair advantages in game. Here is a list of ideas that I am just saying off the top off my head:
1) Ability to List 2 Extra items (default is 10, max 16.) (extra searches)
2) Slightly Weaken the monsters in the "Monster Trade Area by 1 lvl."
3) Allow players to use bold for so many characters, use colors.
4) If you decided to allow players to actually walk around in in-game shops that players own, you could let them decorate it with a variety of items (this would bring in so much cash.)
5) etc etc


End Thoughts
I think there is a huge misconception about allowing players an easy way to trade. Something that is easy does not need to be quick, and that is the issue here. There are a large variety of ways of going about this, and my suggestions are just one of them. Most players do not want to deal with the spam that is trade chat, however making trading fun yet still time consuming is what is important here. I would love the ability to trade easily, but I dont care if I have to play more so I can trade. I doubt others would too.

So it is the Duelist..

I wish the ingame models actually looked even half as good. Honestly, the game needs a full texture (and animation!) pass on its models, especially the old character models; Scion's got the most love while everything else looks old and janky, save for maybe most of Act 3.

Basically, I'd love to see a higher fidelity PoE. Current gen games like Diablo 3 look absolutely beautiful (despite it being awful), and PoE looks like it's from 2005 with everything except its particle effects.

"

cronus wrote:

"

Obscuritas wrote:

I can explain people all day long how stockmarkets work and why we need them, at the end they are not gonna change their opinion in the least bit.
In the worst case calling me a heartless economist ^^.

it's extremely off topic (sry mods) but imho stock markets could only work if you ban institutional investors from using it. as long this is the case it's a one way road from the pockets of small scale investors into the pockets of the big players.

to get the corner back to the game: if you have hundreds of exalts and chaos it's easy to throw one of them at a time on the market to lower their price.
you just need to create 2 accounts and equip one with exalts, the other one with chaos. then you start selling one currency for the other until the price drops at which point you start buying that currency with the other account.
it's good for your strategy if you accompany it with forum post like: "can somebody tell me why exalts go for only 15-20 chaos now? are people crazy?".

market concentration is always bad.

the point I was trying to get across is there is quiet the number of people that will not listen to any rational argumentation/ logic.
there no use arguin if the Ah in D3 ruined the game or if it was the lack of customasation, bad item design, lack of endgame, no replayability, no pvp ... or whatver, since people tend to stick to their beliefs.
Stockmarkets are not that far of the mark imo since using real life markets to base your argumentation on when talking about the price developments in a game can be very helpfull.

And no I don´t thonk you can lower the price of ex this way.
What determines the price is demand and supply, you may cause the illusion that ex are now worth less then chaos but that still doesn´t mean people will be willing to sell them at the price.
Leaving aside that there is no way a single person can pull that off since for thi one person trading ex for chaos at the low rate there will be hundrets trading at the real exchange rate.

An example: Regrets used to be 1:1 with chaos, then the demand for regrets rose up to the point where it wasn´t even possible to buy them for 1,5 chaos, you had to offer 2 and even then you had to hope that there would be still someone who had some left.
Many people kept saying that regret/chaos are 1/1 other said its 2/3, it didn´t change the fakt that is was 2/1.
Currently we are allmost back at the old 1/1 ratio.