GGG stance on "Mules" (Multi-Boxing to store gear, improve exp and loot drops)

Why not have it so the difference in levels of the party will effect the amount of additional difficulty/rewards.

So if you have a lvl 60 and 5 lvl 1's it would barely be any noticeable increase in loot or xp. seems simple enough then if the multiboxers were still intent on doing it at least they would need to take time to level the 5 other characters separately before even being able to get a return. Adding this would prevent the majority of "casual" multiboxers that are doing it for a quick boost in items and xp, as well as preserve the option for those who want to increase their difficulty and rewards using this method.

I completely agree with WhiteBoy on this one.

But there must be a way to make it impossible to run through the game with a level 1 character without making level restricted areas. Like killing a final boss by yourself... Nope, it would be silly, damn, maybe somebody else has a better idea?

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wiggin wrote:

I completely agree with WhiteBoy on this one.

But there must be a way to make it impossible to run through the game with a level 1 character without making level restricted areas. Like killing a final boss by yourself... Nope, it would be silly, damn, maybe somebody else has a better idea?

Let it be allowed, but give the party 'advantages' (more loot, xp) only for players who have a high enough lvl compared to the highest leveled player in the party (e.g. you can have some one lvl 5 going with your lvl 40 character and he will count toward the party limit, but won't give you the 50% more loot modifier) - of course there would need to be a serious lvl gap... Just an idea.

EDIT: i fail at reading, just noticed that schitzoflink posted a very similar idea just two post above :S

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rwk wrote:

It's not cheating since it isn't using an exploit or hack to do something others can't do. Anyone can do it if they've got the resources to. It requires them to have leveled another character, equipped them with gear, and be able to maneuver two characters. Dual-boxing isn't cheating to anyone with sense. If you're allowed to play with others and getting their help them there's no reason why you aren't allowed to puppet two characters to support each other.

This is a terribly flawed point of view.

Here's an example:
In a shooter, is it fair to multibox and put characters on the enemy team and then run around killing them? That's not a hack, and by your logic it's also not a cheat or an exploit. Anyone can do it if they have the resources.

Even if you don't play competitively, PoE is a competitively-ranked game. The fact that every character is on the ladder means that every character is competition for those who care about the ladder. A bunch of exploiters running 6 accounts with the flavor-of-the-month OP class are affecting other players whether they realize it or not. If they trade with other players, they're also adversely affecting the game's economy because they have 6x the normally-expected income.

There are a lot of reasons why this is a bad practice to allow. Saying it should be allowed simply because you want to do it, while completely ignoring all the reasons why it's bad, doesn't mean it should be allowed.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

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rwk wrote:

It's not cheating since it isn't using an exploit or hack to do something others can't do. Anyone can do it if they've got the resources to. It requires them to have leveled another character, equipped them with gear, and be able to maneuver two characters. Dual-boxing isn't cheating to anyone with sense. If you're allowed to play with others and getting their help them there's no reason why you aren't allowed to puppet two characters to support each other.

This is a terribly flawed point of view.

Here's an example:
In a shooter, is it fair to multibox and put characters on the enemy team and then run around killing them? That's not a hack, and by your logic it's also not a cheat or an exploit. Anyone can do it if they have the resources.

Even if you don't play competitively, PoE is a competitively-ranked game. The fact that every character is on the ladder means that every character is competition for those who care about the ladder. A bunch of exploiters running 6 accounts with the flavor-of-the-month OP class are affecting other players whether they realize it or not. If they trade with other players, they're also adversely affecting the game's economy because they have 6x the normally-expected income.

There are a lot of reasons why this is a bad practice to allow. Saying it should be allowed simply because you want to do it, while completely ignoring all the reasons why it's bad, doesn't mean it should be allowed.

The only flawed perspective is your ridiculous example which made me facepalm.

Dual-boxed characters aren't on your team, they hindering your party/team, and they aren't killing allied players.

Having two computers running two copies of the game and using two mouses and keyboards to control each copy of the game is perfectly legitimate if it's a team game and since it takes more effort, skill, and attention than playing a single copy.

This isn't some one vs one like you're trying to imply. Someone who plays with more than one copy puts in more effort and attention than you and is simply reward because of it.

You've simply got a case of "I can't/don't do it so nobody can" and some "everyone who has anything more/better than me is cheating at life" syndrome.


Exploits are abuses of bugs and glitches which are totally unintended oversights. Everything you don't approve of isn't an exploit. You aren't breaking any ground with your flimsy opinion/thoughts on this so you should stop slandering others by wrongly using implicative words. Unless the developers decide you aren't allowed to puppet multiple clients then it's as standard as using a mouse and keyboard.

The problem with the /players x command is it grossly increases the advantage gained by exploiting some other game mechanic. For instance, let's say you find a bug that lets you do 200% damage. With players x you can now rake it loot at an incredible rate.

However, this is currently gotten around anyways by multiboxing and/or leechers. There isn't really much ggg can do about either of these, especially the second. Instanced loot would solve the problem of extra loot, and some sort of system where xp for parties depends on player radius could be implemented. That however has the potential to punish players playing legit.

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rwk wrote:

Exploits are abuses of bugs and glitches which are totally unintended oversights.

I am pretty sure GGG didn't make and balance the game around the idea of leechers and multiboxing. You are actually using an oversight by doing so, by your definition it seems to be an exploit.
It is OK to do so, until devs decide it is not. As I read your comments, I think they actually should lock difficulties for low levels. Then it would be clear even for people with really flexible moral sense.

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Saffell wrote:

The problem with the /players x command is it grossly increases the advantage gained by exploiting some other game mechanic. For instance, let's say you find a bug that lets you do 200% damage. With players x you can now rake it loot at an incredible rate.

However, this is currently gotten around anyways by multiboxing and/or leechers. There isn't really much ggg can do about either of these, especially the second. Instanced loot would solve the problem of extra loot, and some sort of system where xp for parties depends on player radius could be implemented. That however has the potential to punish players playing legit.

Let's not use straw man examples like a bug which gives you 200% damage since it has no relation to anything which is being talked about, please.

It grossly increase the difficulty of the monsters and time it takes to clear along with what you find. Unless you're saying the monsters stay at static difficulty, but increase drops then there's nothing wrong with it.

I'll just flat out say it, I don't even think you guys can make a character who can efficiently clear 6 man content by himself at the hardest difficulty without the help of a developer. I don't see why you're trying to downplay this aspect so much.

The only way this style of play would benefit the player greatly is if they're very high level and monsters they're killing at at a relatively low level because there's no higher level monsters.


I doubt you can make this character, but if it did exist then they'll simply join groups and kill monsters by themself away from the other members. They'll still get all loot, experience, and have this advantage.


This is simply a case of have nots wanting haves to not have. Try and enjoy the game at your own pace instead of trying to slow others down to it. If you're at this stage then it's impossible for you to catch up even if you try and slow them down.

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The problem with the /players x command is it grossly increases the advantage gained by exploiting some other game mechanic. For instance, let's say you find a bug that lets you do 200% damage. With players x you can now rake it loot at an incredible rate.

That's not the the real problem with implementing the feature, the problem is PoE is a competitive online only game that uses a persistent world with instances.

In Diablo 2 the "/players X" command was introduced to allow people playing single player to simulate the effects of having multiple players in the game so it only works in single player, open battle.net (only single player characters which are stored on your hard drive can be used and one player's computer acts as a host), and TCP/IP games and is nonfunctional in closed battle.net games (aka realm games). Keep in mind that because of the way open and TCP/IP work if it works in SP it will generally work in those modes as well.

So in D2 players who could use the command where separated from players who could not use it in a way that can't be done in PoE. This threw a bone to people playing offline or with a few friends in other modes but it also allowed the game to continue to have access to a carrotstick to use in realm games to encourage meat sacks to play together. If there is no single player mode and the devs went out of their way to implement bigger rewards for partying up why would they want to implement a feature like the players x command?

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WizardLife wrote:

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The problem with the /players x command is it grossly increases the advantage gained by exploiting some other game mechanic. For instance, let's say you find a bug that lets you do 200% damage. With players x you can now rake it loot at an incredible rate.

That's not the the real problem with implementing the feature, the problem is PoE is a persistent online world with instanced gameplay. In Diablo 2 the "/players X" command only works in single player, open battle.net (only single player characters which are stored on your hard drive can be used and one player's computer acts as a host), and TCP/IP games.

On battle.net this dilemma didn't exist because people who could clear it with multiple players simply joined others games and did so.

join any dueling/trading game and kill the area you want and it's the exact same thing. There's no shortage of games to ever find either.

This was done constantly without notice of some of the more novice population from D2 it seems though.