Listening to the community too much is what ruined PoE 1 for many of us.

GGG need to Choose a Directioon trying to please everyone is not going to work:


(1) Keep the game somehwat complex and challenging and cater more to the hardcore audience WHICH IS WHERE THE SUCCESS OF POE1 CAME FROM.


(2) Choose the route of pandering to the masses and create another D4 or LE clone for the zoomers.

The underlying issue with PoE is that there is a blatant disconnect between intent and execution.

Archnemesis was probably the most clear example but there are myriad examples if you want to trawl through the history of the game.

Problem: players are blasting through the game without any real danger.
Solution: introduce mechanics that present a higher level of friction and the need to actually concentrate and play the game.
Execution: mechanics that are punishing the longer the monster stays alive, thereby incentivising players to invest even more into damage.

The problem is a reasonable analysis of the situation. The solution, at least conceptually, is relatively sound. The execution missed the mark by a million miles and anyone with even a minor understanding of the game could have seen that coming.

As someone that rarely even reaches what most players would consider average character efficiency, Archnemesis were patently broken mechanics that did nothing to fix the problem. All they did was make the game miserable for the middle to lower end of the playerbase, who weren't the problem in the first place. The mechanics are still terrible to encounter and you just roll the dice and hope you don't get snake-eyes at a time when it stacks on something else and you end up dead. Randomly screwing players over is never a good design.

The next closest example of the bipolar nature of the game is the devs oft proclaimed desire to slow down the game at the same time as most things have a timer on them. "We want you to invest less in damage and create more balanced characters. Here's a mechanic the embodies the complete opposite of that." Looking at the forced advancement of Delve, Alva missions, Delirium, et al. Let's not even mentioned the awful drop progression of gear that outright punishes any player that goes slow.

I mean, as a commentary of modern western consumer society where the rich get richer and the everyman gets left behind and exploited, I'd say PoE is a raging success. As a mechanically tight and carefully considered game, it's got some glaring problems alongside some really great aspects.

Listening to either the hardcore edge lords or unworthy filthy casuals is not the problem. The game could actual cater successfully to both if GGG were willing to loosen the reins and allow players to actually have some agency.

ATM online droped by a half (from 200 to 100k) because GGG doesn't want to listen community and making game slog fest with 0 loot and sponged monsters.
Ironicaly thoose guys as OP never played in endgame too much, stuck at acts and plays on meta classes (im 95% sure OP is huntress-amazon). Because they always shows huge disconnect between they thoughts and real how it goes in game. They tells about diffuculty, but tell me my boy - does it realy game became difficult if you nerf to death all players damage and pump HP for mobes so you have to scratch it for 10 minutes? Does 0 drop rate makes game rly difficult or it just about bad balance? You guys always whining about that GGG will ruin if they were listen community but you are deaf what community says - NO ONE tells that game became difficult and "there is no 1 button build give my money back". everyone tells that game became slog fest with 0 loot, which makes progression too way slow. GO try SSF league for non meta class and you will realise that you are stuck at acts for many hours just dummy grinding.

From my side im also adding - GGG just killed ALL endgame content and made it miserable. What the point to go delirium/altar/simulacrum/trials/sekhemas? what the point? All endgame stuff became total trash - adorned is dead because there is no room for sockets, temporalis is dead, howa is dead, ingenuity is dead, mana flask is dead, time lost is dead, grand regalia is dead. There is no single endgame drop which you desire to farm. So what the point to play in that game with slow and tedious acts, brought to death 90% of spells, 0 room of build versatility and 0 endgame content?

"

tsunamikun#0433 wrote:

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

Objectively untrue.

No, learn what onjectively means. Where is your data? Trust me bro?

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

This is my issue with complaining streamers as well, most of the "Data" they bring up is incredibly subjective and anecdotal evidence, yet when you put that evidence side-to-side with the objective metrics - they fall short.

Where is this side-by-side data you are talking about? Trust me bro?

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

You are mistaking your subjective experience (probably caused by lack of adaptability and general mechanical skill) for objectivity.

So Loot is bad and damage scales exactly with monster hp is because I'm a bad player? Interesting viewpoint. I mean quite stupid, but it falls in line with the rest you did say. Also, concerning my "subjective" experience, the game is not hard, is laughably easy, its just a boring slog. Maybe it will change with mapping, maybe not, we will see.

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

And I never complained about current game design, I actually believe the philosophy is an upgrade but needs to be made performant and more reliable in terms of difficulty curve and damage numbers.

Of course you didn't, you already said you had absolutely no clue about game design. Not is so many words, but in intent.

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

"Nobody cares about X people" is just generally a very toxic attitude, right?

Alienating the portion of the player-base that help define the essence of your game is one way to have your product lose its mystical qualities.

Reality isn't a safespace mate, nothing really toxic about stating facts about a business. And the "portion" didn't define anything, as you yourself said. POE1 is its own beast, and has nothing to do with those hardcore tryhards, because they are long gone.

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

Support and new content for a game running on an outdated engine is a massive hassle and incredible workload that isn't worth the cost.

Source: Trust me bro.
Both engines are produced in house and are almost identical, there is no hassle, they just don't enough dudes for both. But hey, the customers will decide with their wallets anyway ;)

"

Acaste7#4977 wrote:

What made PoE 1 successful isn't its loot-crazed zoomy gameplay. That was just for the last few leagues (this was probably when you joined up).

For a long time before that, what truly made PoE 1 successful and unique was its deep-layered systems, customizability and difficulty, something other aRPG games couldn't provide.

Cute but objectively wrong. when was the last league of this difficulty you speak of, 2014? The majority of players in poe1 are the so called zoom zoom players.
Facts hurt, don't they.

And really unfortunate that customizability and deep layered systems are gone in POE2, because balancing and one size fits all gameplay reigns supreme.

The game is not meant to be played league after league. It is for casuals, 40 hours campaign, done and come back when the new class releases.

Long term PoE2 has only one chance to survive, it has to become more like PoE.

The AI is simply not made for white monsters being a threat. So the conclusion will be blast in the end.

GGG is now corkscrewing around with health, movement speed, ailment and stun thresholds etc....but in the end it all will be useless because the AI (besides bosses) doesn't offer the choice for meaningful combat because of the sheer amount of monsters and lack of attack patterns.

On top you have to change your loot and drop tables if you somehow want to make it work regardless, no one wants to combo white monsters away for zero loot.

"

H3rB1985#0551 wrote:

The game is not meant to be played league after league. It is for casuals, 40 hours campaign, done and come back when the new class releases.

Long term PoE2 has only one chance to survive, it has to become more like PoE.

The AI is simply not made for white monsters being a threat. So the conclusion will be blast in the end.

GGG is now corkscrewing around with health, movement speed, ailment and stun thresholds etc....but in the end it all will be useless because the AI (besides bosses) doesn't offer the choice for meaningful combat because of the sheer amount of monsters and lack of attack patterns.

On top you have to change your loot and drop tables if you somehow want to make it work regardless, no one wants to combo white monsters away for zero loot.

Yep.

As I've said in other threads: GGG really need to decide who they are making this game for, because right now, they're trying hard to appeal to everyone and are going full Blizzard style.

PoE1 had an identity. PoE1 had elements that made it stand out from the crowd. Sure, some people didn't like that identity? Fine, plenty of ARPGs out there. Now, what does PoE2 have that other ARPG don't? In my eyes, nothing.

They (GGG) have been pretty clear; PoE 2 will be a seasonal game very much like PoE1. With it's current speed of progression, lengthy campaign and 'reduced' build variety, I'm just not seeing it. Sure, build variety will be better with more classes and more weapon types, but will it be good? Time will show.

In addition, Jonathan really struggled to answer some of the better question Ziz asked him; how long is the campaign 'supposed' to take? Is this a game meant for the dedicated players, wanting to sink thousands of hours every year? He produced a non-answer on both questions.

What am I trying to say here? If PoE2 is supposed to be a seasonal game in the same way as PoE1 WAS(!), it needs to change in several areas. If it's not aiming to be developed around seasons, with more focus on standard, how will that work within their monetization model and their balance around the economy?

+1 Please Upvote!!

"

ShaDarkLord#6528 wrote:

ATM online droped by a half (from 200 to 100k) because GGG doesn't want to listen community and making game slog fest with 0 loot and sponged monsters.
Ironicaly thoose guys as OP never played in endgame too much, stuck at acts and plays on meta classes (im 95% sure OP is huntress-amazon). Because they always shows huge disconnect between they thoughts and real how it goes in game. They tells about diffuculty, but tell me my boy - does it realy game became difficult if you nerf to death all players damage and pump HP for mobes so you have to scratch it for 10 minutes? Does 0 drop rate makes game rly difficult or it just about bad balance? You guys always whining about that GGG will ruin if they were listen community but you are deaf what community says - NO ONE tells that game became difficult and "there is no 1 button build give my money back". everyone tells that game became slog fest with 0 loot, which makes progression too way slow. GO try SSF league for non meta class and you will realise that you are stuck at acts for many hours just dummy grinding.

From my side im also adding - GGG just killed ALL endgame content and made it miserable. What the point to go delirium/altar/simulacrum/trials/sekhemas? what the point? All endgame stuff became total trash - adorned is dead because there is no room for sockets, temporalis is dead, howa is dead, ingenuity is dead, mana flask is dead, time lost is dead, grand regalia is dead. There is no single endgame drop which you desire to farm. So what the point to play in that game with slow and tedious acts, brought to death 90% of spells, 0 room of build versatility and 0 endgame content?

Again, same issue displayed here as I stated before. Almost everything you say here is emotional input and objectively untrue.

Firstly, addressing your assumptions:

- I have played endgame in poe 1 extensively, I know what I'm talking about.
- I don't play amazon/huntress at all, most of my builds are "off-meta".
- 0 drop rates don't exist, my loot drops just great and crafting is OK.
- There's tons of endgame content, you're just not engaging with it.
- Not a slog fest if you increase your damage numbers horizontally not vertically, takes a bit of creativity.

hmmm,

So this is about poe 1 was like poe 2 when it was new back then and the same difficulty and the game just took off but all the good players left after it became too easy.


but. the numbers didn't go down....they grew? the game became bigger and bigger, a solid sucess. It didn't sink, it sailed. The faster game prevailed oddly. if all the good players left, umm, wouldn't POE 1's player number be 0 back then?


Now the good players are back, the difficulty is back, and the other less skilled players are whining trying to change it.

But the game isn't growing now, it's kinda sinking, not sailing, player count looks like a ski slope. It nudged up a bit with patch, maybe, but its early

Unlike back then, the competitive nature of the market is hot right now and they are playing it easy fast then slow hard at the end as a call to the unsatisfied.


I have feeling there might be a whole lot more casuals than there are of you.

the real test will be when Epoc release their patch, will poe numbers tank, I guess we will see.

I hope GGG does the right thing, what ever that is, to keep all its players

it is one of the few studios I think highly of..

POE became the greatest and sitll is the best action rpg through player feedback. Funny that OP has no supporter packs and post some bs like this, those of us who play 1000hrs and many supporter packs love POE 1 and are happy they listen which is why it's the top ARPG!

I love GGG and there response to feedback! I've played this game for over 10 yrs and still enjoy it. POE 2 has lot sof work to do but if they ignore player feedback it's not going to be solid full game like POE 1.

"

VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

The truth is, the majority of players who aren't constantly complaining are either too busy actually playing the game, enjoying it, or simply don't feel the need to post every time something doesn't go their way. They exist and they're just not making noise 24/7 on forums or social media.

Going down the path of logic that you yourself decided upon:

Most people that are unhappy with the game are too busy playing other things, enjoying those other things, and simply don't feel the need to post about their disappointment with this random game known as PoE.

We know PoE isn't that popular because, as far as "live service" games go, it isn't doing very good. Sure, PoE beats random single player games that are one-and-done, but in regards to games intended for people to keep coming back to... PoE is not up there.




Hell... let me go see if this is pretty much true...








... Yup. Damn, that's actually worse than I thought.

Warframe is a game that a lot of gamers STILL NEVER EVEN HEARD OF. And yet, it's currently doing about TEN TIMES better??? That's crazy. Warframe can't even get its shit straight. It hasn't had a proper endgame since day 1, and all you do is farm overwhelming character power for absolutely no reason whatsoever. But, hey, PoE could never get its endgame situated, either, huh? Our current endgame (maps) is what they had for a PLACEHOLDER about a decade ago, back when Piety in Lunar Temple was the final boss of the game.




Man, the echo chamber in this community is intense. INTENSE. But when you zoom out, it's actually pretty embarrassing. This game probably survives as a business for the same reason something like Fire Emblem Heroes does: The diehard whales solo carrying the whole thing on their backs. Because, in regards to popularity amongst actual gamers... these games just don't hold up.




Now I'm just curious:



LOL

This game is by all means considered dead. And PoE is only about 2x its players??? And you want to sit there and act like you got high ground in this discussion???

Buh-RUTHER.