Diablo 1 - Best Loot and Itemization to Date - Modder explains.

In this topic which I hope doesn't get too long I'm going to explain why Diablo 1 had the best itemization of any ARPG I've ever played. It requires an understanding of some class specific but I'll try not to go too deep into that. I helped make a mod for Diablo 1 called "The Dark".

In this we fixed many bugs, design flaws but stuck to the Diablo 1 experience. I few years ago I read a very heartfelt post about our mod which still brings me joy to know it was enjoyed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11r4kry/in_memory_of_the_dark_the_best_diablo_1_mod_ever/


My claim. Diablo 1 had the best itemization, why? Because everything was worth doing. Opening chests, killing white mobs, killing rares/bosses or Diablo himself.

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First. You have to understand the differences between the Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 itemization. Diablo 1 worked off Dungeon Level which influenced monster level and thus item level. Chests were a -1-3 Dungeon level modifier. Bosses were a +3 and Diablo at +4 modifier.

Each difficulty increased dungeon level by +10. Thus Hell/Hell was Dungeon level 33-36. The same modifiers still applied to bosses and chests however. Thus opening a chest on level 36 was Dungeon level 33-35 while killing Diablo himself was 40.

You can see how itemization becomes more evenly spread at higher levels. You did not need to just go to level 36 or just kill diablo and restart even though he had the highest monster level modifier. The number of rolls you got just starting in hell and fighting deeper worked.

Now we go to Diablo 2 where the boss modifiers are much higher and Magic Find was introduced. You already know the end result. Spam Mephisto, Baal or one Arreat tile with high pack density.

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One thing I'd like to debunk is that Diablo 1 did not have an end-game. It did.

Diablo 1 end-game was comically something many players have wanted in PoE. They were just more subtle and not something all players would have be interested in at the time. The most common was Shrine Hunting. Increasing Thinking Cap's 1 Durability till you feel good about not losing it. Also, the best Shield in the Diablo for a warrior was not Storm Shield. This was because Warrior had innate Faster Block. The best Shield was Godly Prefix with variable Suffix depending. The downside to this was Storm Shield was indestructible while the Shield I mentioned had 50/50 Durability. Thus similar to Thinking Cap you could adventure until you got 255/255 durability.

This was Diablo 1's itemization end-game. Finding the gear you want then improving it.

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Maximizing character diversity was also a big one and took a lot of time. Most people think Diablo 1 and go Fighter = 1h + Shield. Rogue = Bow and Sorcerer = Spells. That wasn't the case.

All characters in Diablo 1 could use magic and reaching max level in certain spells made a huge difference for all of them. A fighter could use teleport attacks, and shoot just fast as a rogue with the right bow. A rogue made a formidable melee character but they required Faster Block and Faster Attack on their Sword. Sorcerer had all magic at their disposal at +5 Spell level.

You could not do any of this without working on both your items and your spells.
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I hope the purpose of this post is clear. Rewarding players for doing all types of activities and not just killing Rare/Bosses with some 'chase aspect' like GGG has done works far better. The drop itself while a potential upgrade is not the end of it. That item can be improved further with player dedication granting even more accomplishment. In PoE the crafting system attempts to fill this secondary reward system for items but it's of course quite RNG and PoE2 is quite lacking.

The first part. The drop itself is something GGG has just never done right with either game. It is incredibly important that a player doesn't feel like they're wasting their time.

I believe PoE would greatly benefit from taking notes on how Diablo 1 did itemization.
Sorry for the book and yes hacking, duping, etc. Not the point.

Nice
+1

Cool post.

Hidden shrines were fun to find.

"

StrykerxS77x#8221 wrote:

Hidden shrines were fun to find.

They were and I wonder how many players back then knew just how strong they could be. I'm sure players going back probably don't. They do one normal run and think that's it.

Shrines were how you got that Warrior with Level 1 Teleport which cost 35 mana of their whopping 100 mana to levl 20 at 15 mana and drastically change how you could play them.

Rogues could invest in Magic instead of Vitality because Mana Shield had a hidden 33% DR effect which worked well with them having the highest Armor Class possible.

There were a variety of progression paths for each class and the itemization / Alternate advancement helped make that possible. PoE1 every class can use every skill was one of it's major lures for me. I hope they reconsider itemization for PoE2. It's just not fun.

I remember being so happy about just getting Thinking cap over 10 durability.

And that first Godly sword of haste!

I do miss the bookcases & elixers, they where my favorites. Always thinking "oh nice! Wonder what books ill find this time for myself and the gang!"


I still click on all bookcases in D2 and hope for a book to drop :O

+1
Never played D1 but the system sounds as a good base.

+1

I've stopped playing Poe, because they're going down a bad path. A friend of mine was silenced for 2 months for saying "budding dictators" in Poe-2, his first "punishable" comment. I think they're more focused on censorship than on their games. Also, they've dropped Poe-1, which for me is a much better game right now than Poe-2. Poe-2 has copied many of Poe-1's mechanics and made them worse, it's a tedious and punishing game. I'm still looking for alternatives to Poe, I liked the original Poe, which I played for years, but with the new direction of GGG they're going down a very bad path, besides not respecting the player, censoring them for trivial things. As long as they do that I won't invest a cent in this.

D1 endgame is teleport + apoc/fireball/chain lightning staff on every character because of AOE. Just as in all arpgs later. Zoom Zoom Zoom, 1 shot screens.

But what I really liked in D1 was To-Hit / Armor system.
Yes, many people hated it, because of stunlock, but as RPG element in this very game it was SUPER good. The deeper you go, the more armor you must have. It is just as important as Life. If you have 100000 life and no armor - you will die because of stunlocks.

Another great thing in this game (no further ARPGS ever copied for unknown reason) was how Unique Monsters with their minions were designed. Unique skins, Unique skills, Unique AI behavior. Even D2 failed to replicate this. D3 (just like as POE) made "random affixes from pool of affixes on each and every random elite" which made every elite pack boring. And they are still BORING in PoE2.

"

And that first Godly sword of haste!

King's, not Godly -)
Godly goes for Full Plate of Whale.

"

SwedishTavern#6176 wrote:

I remember being so happy about just getting Thinking cap over 10 durability.

And that first Godly sword of haste!

I do miss the bookcases & elixers, they where my favorites. Always thinking "oh nice! Wonder what books ill find this time for myself and the gang!"

I still click on all bookcases in D2 and hope for a book to drop :O

I still click stuff too. Even in PoE. Old habits die hard but this is also the type of environmental interaction that's missing from newer ARPGs. Finding Armor / Weapon Racks and secret rooms.

Yea, ARPGs are about killing monsters but they're also exploring and being immersed in the map. Even tactically. I'm sure most people have used doors, gates and corners in Diablo 1.

"

Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

D1 endgame is teleport + apoc/fireball/chain lightning staff on every character because of AOE. Just as in all arpgs later. Zoom Zoom Zoom, 1 shot screens.

But what I really liked in D1 was To-Hit / Armor system.
Yes, many people hated it, because of stunlock, but as RPG element in this very game it was SUPER good. The deeper you go, the more armor you must have. It is just as important as Life. If you have 100000 life and no armor - you will die because of stunlocks.

Another great thing in this game (no further ARPGS ever copied for unknown reason) was how Unique Monsters with their minions were designed. Unique skins, Unique skills, Unique AI behavior. Even D2 failed to replicate this. D3 (just like as POE) made "random affixes from pool of affixes on each and every random elite" which made every elite pack boring. And they are still BORING in PoE2.

That first part doesn't sound right. All you really needed was an Arch Angel's Staff for the +2 Spell Levels and only Sorcerer really used staves because of the plentiful monster Immunity. If I recall Staff of Apoc only had 5 changes so it wasn't like you could spam that. Teleport for sure. Everyone used teleport. That and a scaling Crit chance is what kept Warrior cruising.

Unfortunately in our mod we had to kill Chain Lightning for Ball Lightning. Still feels blasphemous but it had AoE layering problems. We did fix Flash so it properly did 2 ticks of damage on both sides of the character. Fixed Blood Star scaling and quite a few other things to make up for it.

The Enemies in Diablo 1 had AI presets. Some were unique to bosses. That's why they would sometimes act entirely different than their base enemy type. You could swap AI types which we did on extra bosses. We also put in some of the single player only quests for multiplayer.

If GGG wasn't so committed to MMO-lite boss mechanics they could probably get away with having a big nasty and minions walk up on you. Not every boss needs an arena with set mechanics.