Fixing Melee (Warrior/Mace)

At about 170 played hours on my warrior now, I feel I can unequivocally make two claims: 1) I feel like a slow moving train, and 2) I feel like a slow moving train made of paper mache. There are a lot of factors going into why Warrior/Mace feels so bad right now in practice (in particular, maps), but I want to argue that it isn't just that he's slow (as big, heavy, slow hits do feel good). My argument is that he lacks the tools and survivability he needs to make slow gameplay viable in an end game that tickles the taint of PoE1 zoomies and enemy speed, damage potential, and pack size.

To help preface my ideas, I'm running Rolling Slam with armor break support, Seismic Cry to empower slams, Boneshatter, Leap Slam, Sunder, Supercharged Slam with Hourglass (which I barely touch now since the charge time nerf), and Hammer of the Gods with armor break exploit, while running Time of Need and Bloodlust as my persistents. My experience is that I simply don't have survivability, not so much because I am too slow to kill enemies but that I can't handle the incoming damage. Instead of being able to dive into the fray, which seems to be the intended playstyle, I have to dodge roll constantly, not just because I am made of tissue paper despite my best efforts but because of the sheer length of animation lock of my skills (for those curious, post patch 73% Armor, 3191 Life, 77/76/78 ele 44 chaos level 89). While I will make no specific skill change recommendations (other than mentioning that Supercharged Slam feels horrible now and Quality should now reduce charge time), this thread will hopefully provide viable ways to fix and improve Warrior. His biggest problem is his lack of tools, but it isn't just a few missing support gems or skill tweaks we need...

1. Combat Flow
First thing to fix is how our skills feel in the flow of combat and this is two fold: Animation lock and attack momentum.
Spoiler
Animation lock makes our slow skill speed feel that much worse. We need to be able to animation cancel after a skill sufficiently "completes" to either flow into another attack or to start moving. Boneshatter is a particularly severe example of animation lock making the skill feel bad to use. I'm almost always forced to wait for the full swing to finish and return to an "idle" stance, forcing me to dodge roll to animation cancel. While most every (certainly melee) skill in the game should get this treatment, mace skills badly need adjustments to when our character is "unlocked" to use another skill or click/WASD move.

Momentum is another issue, in that skills with forward momentum don't always seem to keep it or impose it consistently. It makes things feel that much worse when Rolling Slam, for example, will just sit in place because so many monsters can't be "pushed", and then Leap Slam can't jump over certain enemies or only jumps a few inches despite mouse placement (could in part be due to the very bad auto-target). Fix how the player controller's collision and "push" works with our skills (arguably all melee skills will need help here where relevant) and that will be a huge boost to how warrior/mace feels. Tweaking the "size" of our collision box might help while using a momentum skill, and adding "push" with melee skills would also help, especially if we get more push with two handed weapons. Further, some sort of "slide" functionality when hitting terrain would also help, so we aren't stopping on a dime from one single pixel and instead can flow in the appropriate direction of momentum. The more parallel the angle, the stronger the "slide" until we're sufficiently perpendicular and stop entirely.


2. The Difficulty of Life Stacking
The amount of EHP warriors have right now is laughable, in no small part due to just how hard it is to get high life, meaning we have very little cushion for bad spots or high damage hits in combat and little room for lower tier Life and Str mods on gear.
Spoiler
It isn't just that we need to stack Armor, we need the most Life of any class, as well, and we simply do not have enough ways to stack it. Life needs are so significant right now that I feel like I need top tier Life AND hybrid Life AND Strength rolls to get anywhere close to minimally viable survivability. Feeling compelled to need every one of my gear pieces to roll at the top 0.1% of gear for affixes and tiers just to feel viable even in tier friggen 10 (let alone 15 or 16) feels sooooo fucking bad. One idea might be that we just need Strength to be bumped to 3 Life per point. This might be the simplest and most elegant solution as STR/DEX and STR/INT are liable to run into similar Life challenges. I'd recommend the following additional considerations:

- Passive tree (mostly) Armor nodes getting some extra flat and % Life.
- An Armor Notable and/or dedicated Life notables with a benefit like the following: "Gain 1 Life per 100 Armor" / "Gain 10 Life per 100 armor on Chest piece"
- At least one small, quickly reachable Life branch of 3 or 4 total nodes with a notable ending in a flat addition and % increase, say +20 Life and 10% Increased. Alternatively, the notable can add an additional 10 Life per 10 Strength


3. Issues of Sustain
It is incredibly difficult to build up life and mana sustain through leech and naturally in the passive tree. Without my mace's massive life and mana leech rolls, I wouldn't be able to do anything higher than tier 10 right about now, so we could use some room for options without needing this much gear reliability.
Spoiler
The difficulty in finding life is exacerbated by how little sustain options there are for Life baked into the Passive tree. This is also then made worse by our only real Mana sustain options being Blood Magic and the branch of Life Conversion Cost passives. While I'm not sure of the best approach here, especially since the Passive tree is clearly trying to push more sustain into gear and persistent buffs and the like, this could use some help. And with how immense mana costs get in general, I can't just rely on a single Mana Leech support gem, either. Without the mana leech on my hammer, I'd be out of mana pots frustratingly fast. Consider the following ways to improve sustain:

- Add a Mana heal component to Time of Need.
- Add a couple Recoup nodes to the Red area.
- Persistent Buff that recoups damage taken as health and mana.
- Buff Life regen nodes, add some more small %life nodes
- Buff flat life regen mods, perhaps more tiers so that mid tiers are closer to current high tiers with a few new even stronger higher tiers, or add flat+% life regen hybrid mods.
- Add small base leech to leech notables.
- Reduce mana cost for mace skills by 10-15% across the board at higher gem levels so flasking is more sustainable.


4. Lack of Tools
Perhaps the biggest problem with mace/warrior, however, is that we simply do not have tools necessary to make our gameplay style work.
Spoiler
Our slow speed means we get hit the most out of any skill set, yet we have the single worst defense in the game with absolutely no supplemental mitigation options. There are warriors walking around wearing Cloak of Flame, an energy shield unique, because of just how much better a high stack of fire resist and increased fire resist cap does over raw physical resist because of the conversion of physical to fire. This is absolutely insane (and the issue is NOT with the unique). We can do damn good damage between dual wield and two-hander, and while there may be room to argue 1h+shield damage is underwhelming for the defense boost, we still have slow charge skills and huge attack speed reductions on a lot of skills, let alone flat additional attack time like on Sunder that cannot be compensated for. Like I said in the first paragraph, I feel like a train, but one made of paper mache. If I were a train that was made of metal, then so many complaints of our slow speed would go away (because let's be real, if you hate mace solely because it is slow then mace isn't for you). There also aren't any Physical heralds, which kinda feels bad. I recommend the following changes to tree and additional persistent buffs and support gems in part or in whole:

- Heatproofing branch to be changed as follows: Two more travel nodes, splitting at the 3rd node, next node leading to Heatproofing and the other leading to a new Notable. Each travel node gains "2% of Armor also applies to Elemental damage taken from hits", Heatproofing is changed to 15% from 25% (no net change), and the additional notable provides the following benefit: "15% of Armor also applies to Chaos damage taken from hits."

- Add a new skill gem tag called Wind Up. Wind Up refers to any skill with flat additional skill attack/cast time (e.g. Mace's Sunder, or Elemental's Comet). New Support Gem with the following effect: "Supports Wind Up skills. Removes the Wind Up. Supported skills do 30% Less damage & Area of Effect, and 50% Less ailment and stun buildup. If the skill has a Pay Off, this gem removes the Pay Off effect."

- New Persistent Buff with the following effect: "Increases damage reduction against all damage that is not damage over time by 3%+0.1%perLvl while wielding a melee weapon. Effect is doubled while using a Channeling or Wind Up skill. Quality +0.25% per 5% quality."

- New Spirit Support Gem with the following effect: "10% of Armor is applied to all non-physical non-damage over time sources while the supported skill is in effect."

- New support gem with the following effects: "Supports Channeling skills and Wind Up skills. No single hit can cause more than 25% of your total Life in damage if the damage affects your Life pool. Increases Armor by 5% for duration of attack or channel.

- New Herald with one of the following possible effects, called Herald of Stone:
a) "Adds X-Y+nPerLvl physical damage to Attacks. Further increases physical damage by X%+nPerLvl based on the equipped weapon's base non-modified attack speed at 1.10 attacks per second, or average when dual-wielding, reducing to 0% increased damage for any base attack speed of 1.5 attacks per second or above. Quality gains n% more physical damage."
b) Adds X-Y+nPerLvl physical damage to Attacks. Increases Armor while attacking based on the weapon's base non-modified attack speed up to n% at 1.1 base attacks per second, reducing to 0% increased armor at 1.5 attacks per second. Quality gains n% more physical damage."
c) "Adds X-Y+nPerLvl physical damage to Attacks. Enemies in your Presence have n% less damage with Hits. Quality improves less damage with Hits."
Last edited by CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 on Jan 17, 2025, 9:26:38 PM
Last bumped on Jan 18, 2025, 7:42:17 PM
dude id hate to be the bearer of bad news? but they much rather make everything revolve around endgame than fix anything for melee hell after playing poe 1 for 12 years? melee still wasnt half as meta as ranged/spellcaster,,, point proven in poe 2.....



I think the life regen is good enough if I can get that much passive healing.
I think reducing damage with armour and resistances is the root issue rather than life stacking. I made a couple posts covering armour and resistances needing overhauls if anyone is interested:

Armour issues and how to solve them:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3667538

Resistance issues and how to solve them:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3629096
My theory is the game was designed with ranged in mind, with all these bottlenecks and cramped tight map locations.

I'm just starting to figure out Titan (level 84 now), and I think it revolves around leap slam for destroying mobs, stampede for moving in and out of mobs, and double mace strike vs bosses, with hammer of the gods used with lacerate to cheese sometimes.

Best in really big / open maps.

When I realized that leap slam wasn't really a movement skill, it was a "aim and destroy" skill, I got a lot more speed.

I do think hybrid life / ES is pretty good. It's just the reality that ES is OP and might as well use it to survive a big hit. I've been using those hybrid bases and it's working pretty well, and I think I still have like 73% on screen armor, plus max block.

The skills that have long timers, are just no good in a game with monsters running everywhere. Like sunder for instance, ok in the campaign, just too slow.
Last edited by Tyrsonjsp#2390 on Jan 17, 2025, 10:39:35 PM
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I think the life regen is good enough if I can get that much passive healing.


I can't for the fucking life of me get decent regen, how the hell? Doesn't help I struggle so much to keep my resists up at every potential gear upgrade that is actually a half decent flat regen roll. Need an expert steel with the right stats, sacrificed a lot of regen (for the amount I had) getting an expert vaal thanks to a few better/critical mods.


"
LVSviral#3689 wrote:
I think reducing damage with armour and resistances is the root issue rather than life stacking. I made a couple posts covering armour and resistances needing overhauls if anyone is interested:

Armour issues and how to solve them:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3667538

Resistance issues and how to solve them:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3629096


Honestly, I think Armor's biggest problem really is the lack of tools. ES and EV have great persistent buffs while melee and armor especially don't have any real tools compared to the others. IDK about resistances, though, I wouldn't want it to be too easy to gear out top end stuff, but at least with some of my ideas melee and warrior/mace specifically would have a much easier time of it. If Armor can have some means of applying some of its damage reduction to non-physical hits, we're closer to a viable defense. It really is our potential survivability and not our speed that is the big problem. I'm fine not having the clear speed of some off screener ranged class, kinda comes with the territory, I just want better survivability and the tools to achieve it.
Bumpus
I'm still trying to understand why they nerfed supercharged slam. After saying they won't be touching the meta. And yeah they didn't touch the meta, they nerfed one of the least used skills in the game.
I've been quiet on warrior topics until I reached maps myself with mine. Haven't gone deep into high tier maps, but I feel I can say a few things at least.

"

Animation lock makes our slow skill speed feel that much worse. We need to be able to animation cancel after a skill sufficiently "completes" to either flow into another attack or to start moving. Boneshatter is a particularly severe example of animation lock making the skill feel bad to use. I'm almost always forced to wait for the full swing to finish and return to an "idle" stance, forcing me to dodge roll to animation cancel. While most every (certainly melee) skill in the game should get this treatment, mace skills badly need adjustments to when our character is "unlocked" to use another skill or click/WASD move.
Raise Shield IS that animation cancel we desperately need. While I don't main Rolling Slam, I've successfully repeated just the first hit of it by doing Raise Shield for 0.1 seconds inbetween.

Having said that, I use both weapon sets and have split my passive skill tree such that Molten Blast takes 0.33s to execute while I have a slow 2H mace for Sunder. I couldn't tolerate having Boneshatter on my 2H so it's a 1H skill for me. It ends so fast I don't need to cancel the end part. In fact, the only thing I have my 2H mace for is Sunder (and Hammer of the Gods if I feel I need to mash moar).

"

The amount of EHP warriors have right now is laughable, in no small part due to just how hard it is to get high life, meaning we have very little cushion for bad spots or high damage hits in combat and little room for lower tier Life and Str mods on gear.

The difficulty in finding life is exacerbated by how little sustain options there are for Life baked into the Passive tree.

Our slow speed means we get hit the most out of any skill set, yet we have the single worst defense in the game with absolutely no supplemental mitigation options.

I consider Shield Wall to be part of my EHP. A lv 14 Shield Wall (drops towards end of Cruel Act 3) is 3k+ HP that comes up very quickly and has no cooldown. There are some attacks that go over it, there's Antlion Charger that bulldozes through it, I have to stand back in case of AoEs blowing up on it. Those are the exceptions to a very reliable defence.

The sole thing armour is good for is dealing with quick jabs from white mobs. If my warrior is getting hit by any physical damage bigger than that, I consider that a tactical error. I am going to great lengths to shape the battlefield so I can safely wind up a Sunder.
- Earthquake (with Encumberance and Persistence) to get long, immediate AoE slows.
- Shield Wall to disrupt enemy pathing (and if lucky, get them attacking something irrelevant). Heck, the Shield Wall has Maim slotted into it.
- Totems to be decoys (and help thin a mosquito swarm)
- ORDINARY mace strike with Pin so I have the option to stop enemies if Shield Wall isn't going to cut it for whatever reason

When I wasn't relying on a 2H for Sunder, I had a crossbow putting down Oil Grenade and Glacial Bolt for more crowd control. I'm having to think a lot while playing as what stereotypically would be a dumb brute. I like it. Crowd control is a constant puzzle to solve and when I 1v1 yellows I'm jabbing with my 1H inbetween Raise Shield while waiting for a good Sunder moment.

Oh and while it doesn't help much mid-combat, any damage after a fight is healed off with Font of Life on Shield Wall and Holy Descent on Leap Slam.
Last edited by Schverika#2698 on Jan 18, 2025, 4:57:07 PM
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I've been quiet on warrior topics until I reached maps myself with mine. Haven't gone deep into high tier maps, but I feel I can say a few things at least.

I'd be curious what tier you're clearing so far that you feel safe in, but the biggest problem as I see it with warrior/mace right now is that the speed of attacks (certainly 2hander) means you get hit more often than not. We need the tools to withstand the hits because the problem is that so many hits either aren't reduced by armor or are so hard that armor's "small hit" aspect never really applies. As a two-hander slammer, I flat out just cannot survive sufficiently or safely to get my attacks off and handle crowds. I can appreciate that T14 and 15 are supposed to be hard, but I'm just over base max ele resists with 73% armor and a single white mob can do 800 damage to me, mobs with bonus damage or map mod with bonus damage (esp if it stacks with that) and certain effects and attacks even from a white minion can fucking one shot me. More means to improve armor effects and reduce damage of non-physical is imperative to make warrior/mace feel it can compensate, especially with slower attacks that mean you're being hit.

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