Ascendancy Trials Feedback: Understanding Player Concerns
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Let me preface this by saying this post is primarily meant to address GGG, so "you" refers to whoever this may concern or read this at GGG (or the general "you" as in "you as the player do XYZ"). I'm trying to keep this as objective as possible, but please excuse any unintended criticism that might come through.
TL;DR: The current trials system is a puzzling design decision. It puts something as fundamental and important as the primary power and class fantasy behind previously optional mechanics that are far too different from the core gameplay loop, require specialized builds, and have too much variance in difficulty caused by an unnecessary amount of randomness. You've acknowledged that nobody was really happy with the Labyrinth, and that it needed an overhaul. Seeing the trials in PoE 2, I now suspect you might not have fully understood why players didn't particularly like the lab in PoE1, and that you may have reached certain conclusions about why you changed it the way you did. Before I go into more depth, a personal note (this is where objectivity takes a step back, so bear with me): I'm struggling to understand the reasoning. What was the rationale behind taking two of the most divisive mechanics in PoE1 and making them mandatory? Not only that, but tying them to one of the most important parts of the game? Was it perhaps due to these mechanics not resonating with players in PoE1? Was it an economic decision because you had these mechanics and needed content for PoE2 but were constrained by time? Did you think new players might appreciate them more, not being aware of how controversial these mechanics were initially? Moving back to what I believe are the main issues with the current state of trials. I'll compare them with the lab in PoE1 and explain why I think the lab wasn't well-received, and how you might have misinterpreted player sentiment about it. Randomness vs. Predictability - Both Sekhema and Chaos have layers of randomness that make the difficulty range from "walk in the park" to "well, my build cannot handle this, better try again." That surely can't be the intended design for such an important mechanic. Having something as fundamental as your class ascendancy hidden behind multiple layers of randomness seems problematic. It's concerning to have players go through multiple rooms and floors only to face a choice between: attempting a room with a negative effect their build cannot handle, or abandoning the run, losing all time invested, and hoping the next run will be more favorable. - The lab in PoE1 was predictable. You knew what to expect. There wasn't much variation. The worst that could happen was an unlucky hit from one of Izaro's slams that could one-shot you, but even that was typically due to player inattention, not the inherent variance of the lab itself. Generalization vs. Specialization - Sanctum and Ultimatum were mechanics known for requiring very specific, specialized builds to excel. This was because these mechanics were so different from "the regular game" that the optimal approach was to create a character you wouldn't use in the campaign or mapping. - The lab, however, was build-agnostic. It didn't judge or discriminate. It was simply there to provide a thematic challenge, and our old friend Izaro was happy to grant ascendancy once he found us worthy. The lab was a natural part of progression. Optional vs. Mandatory - Sanctum (Sekhema) and Ultimatum (Chaos) were optional mechanics in PoE1. The first was completely separate from campaign and endgame, while the second was a mechanic in maps you could opt out of. Having these be optional worked in PoE1 because if you didn't enjoy them, you could ignore them. Based on feedback and posts over the years, both were always niche mechanics. - Now, engaging with them is mandatory. You can no longer skip them if you want to progress your character meaningfully. If you didn't like them before? Unfortunately, that's no longer relevant. True Choice vs. False Choice - The lab was never really meant to be a choice. It was there to be completed once you met the requirements, and that was it. It was part of the game. We did it to ascend, to achieve our class fantasy. Nothing more, nothing less. - With Sekhema and Chaos (and the third one), you aimed to give us a choice in how we want to ascend. But it's not really a choice. It doesn't take advanced psychology to understand that players want their class (and power) fantasy as early as possible. Therefore, we're essentially forced to do Sekhema first. Waiting several more hours for Chaos isn't a choice many would make. It's a choice in name only. Expectation vs. Reality - The campaign up until Sekhema in Act 2 sets the precedent for what to expect in the game. For all players, but especially for those new to PoE, the expectation is: A challenging but fair game with bosses that reset on death, but have checkpoints that let you immediately retry them. Beyond that, it's still an ARPG that you play like an ARPG with the usual ARPG mechanics. - The reality of the trials is: a fundamental part of any ARPG - your actual class, the fantasy you wanted to engage with, the "starter class" you likely chose based on that promised fantasy - is locked behind something completely different. Behind mechanics that aren't ARPG mechanics: a roguelike, a horde survival mode, an autobattler (we know what's coming). You set up expectations and break them in an unfortunate way for one of the most important parts of the game. - This brings us to where I think you might misunderstand why players didn't like the lab in PoE1: it wasn't disliked because it was the lab. It was disliked because it was sufficiently different from the core gameplay loop that it felt out of place. It was a "single death means failure" mechanic. It suddenly had traps that weren't found anywhere else. It was a series of maps you had to navigate through. It had blocked paths requiring keys. The lab wasn't poorly designed; it just wasn't what players were expecting based on previous gameplay. - This also leads to my biggest concern with the reasoning mentioned in your Reveal Q&A: "It would be divisive anyway, but this way people at least have a choice." That logic doesn't hold up. The lab was "divisive" because it wasn't what ARPG players expected a core part of an ARPG to be locked behind, yet this approach doubles down on exactly that instead of addressing the underlying issue. Where do we go from here? First, I sincerely hope you're open to feedback. Look around - the feedback about trials right now is almost universally negative. Listen to your players, your supporters, the people who love your otherwise fantastic game. Please don't become entrenched in thinking you can make people love these mechanics. Right now, the trials might be the biggest potential "quitting point" in PoE2. And it's so fundamental to the game that it might turn people away not just from Early Access, but permanently. So please, take time to address this issue. Be open, be transparent, start a dialogue. The minimum changes needed to show you value player feedback: - Remove honor from Sekhema, at minimum from bosses, ideally altogether. It was a problematic mechanic in Sanctum, and remains so in Sekhema. Don't force players to suddenly walk on eggshells if you haven't before. Make these trials accessible to all builds equally, not just builds inherently good at avoiding damage. - Significantly decrease or remove the variance of randomness: Having to get lucky to ascend feels frustrating beyond measure. Make both trials a predictable series of steps, with known modifiers and minimal variation. - Remove the randomness from access itself: Remove access tokens. Lock access behind levels. If you want to maintain some similarity with PoE1, only require access tokens for the final trials. Why not create trials that are build-agnostic and enhance what players already enjoy? - A boss rush mode that pits you against three or more campaign bosses you've encountered so far, plus one of the current Sekhema/Chaos bosses? The bosses are fantastic; give us more opportunities to fight them. During trials, this would be an excellent way to face them, as they would have additional stakes and meaning! - Alternative suggestion: Remove the trials completely. Make them a class quest. Sometimes the traditional approach is actually ideal. The classic "Build-up - Climax - Resolution" structure for stories or I-IV-vi-V chord progression in music are used because they work universally well. As you can see from this extensive (or rather: wall-of-text-y) feedback, I care deeply about PoE, both 1 and 2. PoE 2 has an excellent foundation, but the current state of trials significantly impacts the enjoyment of the game. Please, GGG, keep an open mind and address the feedback many players are providing. Last bumped on Dec 13, 2024, 11:43:37 AM
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Doubt many players will read this post, too many words and all, but I'll do my part and bump this up. Hopefully GGG will notice the post.
Well written and thought out, fingers crossed they take the feedback seriously. |
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Bumping for truth.
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+111111
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you cant get more feedback than this, very objective and well fleshed out.
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Great, well thought out feedback.
Especially the ideas for improvement, both good! " Yup, probably the easiest approach for developers, a boss gauntlet of increasing difficulty. The bosses are indead great, let us fight them more (and/or add in specific bosses!) " In my opinion the best option for players. I'm thinking class quests in FFXIV, which serve exactly this purpose, and a great way to expand on the ascendancies' personality and flavour for lore enjoyers! |
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I REALLY hope GGG reads this, and takes it to heart.
I think 99% of players will agree to all of this. Please GGG, there is an easy fix -roll out ascendancy points upon campaign acts completed, 2 points at 2,3,4 and 6. Then you can implement a trial later, if you so like, but make sure that it: A) Works B) Is fair for all build archetypes C) Is generally considered fun for the vast majority of players Last edited by eldheim#2436 on Dec 13, 2024, 6:11:53 AM
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Add to the fire:
Maybe others knew, but I'm just realizing (after 3 days) the drop for 3rd trial is just RNG? I cannot complete a quest to get the item for ascendancy? bruh....come ON. |
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@OP. True words from my heart, thanks.
Bump. my hovercraft is full of eels
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++++
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