dmg conversation in 80% case

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

In the case you describe, if the active skill gem converts 80% of it's physical damage to fire, assuming for simplicity it started with 100 physical damage, it will have 80 fire damage and 20 physical damage after skill conversion, then Avatar of Fire's non-skill conversion will apply, converting 75% of the physical damage to fire (converting 75% of the fire damage to fire has no effect - converting something to the same thing is ignored entirely), resulting in 95 fire damage and 5 physical - which becomes just 95 fire damage since Avatar of Fire prevents dealing the physical damage at all.

Would you be so kind to explain why this was changed?

Asked

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This completely alters the utility of conversion and makes it much weaker.

And answered.

Conversion shenanigans were the source of a lot of trouble for GGG in PoE1, and essentially every mechanic has been gutted in a power-level perspective moving from PoE1 to 2. They didn't want to deal with repeat situations where people are converting through a rainbow and gaining multiple times as much damage in the process. Not the worst idea from a purely balance perspective but, like so many other things, it makes conversion just feel like an afterthought and as impactful as a wet noodle.

They've taken great pains to make EVERYTHING comparatively weaker than it was, and for me, the outcome is that nothing feels impactful and everything just mushes together as a kind of visual overlay on a bog-standard base.

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Pathological#1188 wrote:

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This completely alters the utility of conversion and makes it much weaker.

And answered.

Conversion shenanigans were the source of a lot of trouble for GGG in PoE1, and essentially every mechanic has been gutted in a power-level perspective moving from PoE1 to 2. They didn't want to deal with repeat situations where people are converting through a rainbow and gaining multiple times as much damage in the process.

One doesn't have to kill conversion to make it work the way they want. They can still have the one-way conversion mechanic where it only scales with what it's converted to, but completely gutting conversion rate is uncalled for. Now you either need a skill with 100% conversion or get fucked and lose some damage. One-way conversion isn't used to scale damage, it's used to bypass a problem, i.e. Phys Reflect. But now you'd always be left with some Phys, ready to kill yourself to a pack.

Only reason conversion in PoE 1 was so broken was because it scaled with the original source and every additional source up to and including the final. That made items like Eternity Shroud super OP, and that's why the good ol' "stat stick" meta was completely busted until the nerf.

Grim Dawn did the same as PoE 2 does now, except they offer way more options when it comes to conversion.

The good news is that now we no longer need to deal with reflect.

I guess "rainbow damage" is the new way. We should be using damage conversions for stuff like optimizing curses/resists penetration/ailments, etc. Leftover unconverted damage is not ideal, but it should not hurt.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Pathological#1188 wrote:

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This completely alters the utility of conversion and makes it much weaker.

And answered.

Conversion shenanigans were the source of a lot of trouble for GGG in PoE1, and essentially every mechanic has been gutted in a power-level perspective moving from PoE1 to 2. They didn't want to deal with repeat situations where people are converting through a rainbow and gaining multiple times as much damage in the process.

One doesn't have to kill conversion to make it work the way they want. They can still have the one-way conversion mechanic where it only scales with what it's converted to, but completely gutting conversion rate is uncalled for. Now you either need a skill with 100% conversion or get fucked and lose some damage. One-way conversion isn't used to scale damage, it's used to bypass a problem, i.e. Phys Reflect. But now you'd always be left with some Phys, ready to kill yourself to a pack.

Only reason conversion in PoE 1 was so broken was because it scaled with the original source and every additional source up to and including the final. That made items like Eternity Shroud super OP, and that's why the good ol' "stat stick" meta was completely busted until the nerf.

Grim Dawn did the same as PoE 2 does now, except they offer way more options when it comes to conversion.

I agree with you entirely, I'm just saying why they did it.

There's nothing intrinsically problematic with leaving a small amount of damage unconverted if the game is balanced around that fact - it's messy, but it's not a problem per say. That said, like so many other mechanics in PoE2, it feels completely watered down and uninspired compared to the PoE1 version. It's like they took the log of the power level of all the cool mechanics in poe1 and applied them to PoE2, so the mechanic still exists in name, but in power level its as impactful as a wet noodle.

Heft does genuinely feel like its wrong though.

Ill take Hammer of the Gods as my example. I am using this skill and also Avatar of fire.

The skill itself (HotG) doesn't say anything about physical damage, only Attack Damage.

In the skills data sheet, I have for example a total Main Hand Fire Damage of 64k with no mention of Physical damage.

If I remove Heft, I drop down to 49k, so Heft is definitely scaling something.

And from what I can tell, it would only be able to be scaling the physical damage on my 2H weapon, and this appears to be before Avatar of Fire conversion.

Now... Whether or not this is the intended behavior or not... Only GGG can answer that, but it's working none the less. So I'm happy for now lol.

Heft increases the flat damage of the skill, applying before conversion.

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darrylemoonman#1154 wrote:

Heft does genuinely feel like its wrong though.

Ill take Hammer of the Gods as my example. I am using this skill and also Avatar of fire.

The skill itself (HotG) doesn't say anything about physical damage, only Attack Damage.

In the skills data sheet, I have for example a total Main Hand Fire Damage of 64k with no mention of Physical damage.

If I remove Heft, I drop down to 49k, so Heft is definitely scaling something.

And from what I can tell, it would only be able to be scaling the physical damage on my 2H weapon, and this appears to be before Avatar of Fire conversion.

Now... Whether or not this is the intended behavior or not... Only GGG can answer that, but it's working none the less. So I'm happy for now lol.

1) No its not wrong beause HOTG takes your weapon damage.
2) If your weapon is pure physical damage then Heft will increase the max roll of your HOTG can roll, which can lead into tooltip dps increase.
3) If your weapon have no physical damage at all, then your heft will do nothing.
4) Heft doesn't increase your damage in traditional way like other supports do, it only increase the max roll of damage. If its 10-100 physical damage without heft, then it would be something like 10-130ish physical damage with Heft.

Step 1:

Apply any conversions and base damage modifiers via support gems on the actual skill gem

From this you get the "base" damage numbers for the skill with corresponding damage types.

Step 2:

Any conversions via other means such as gear/passives etc.

From this you get the "final base" damage numbers their final damage types with no further conversions possible

Note:

Unlike POE1, any increases/decreases/damage multipliers ONLY APPLY if they are the corresponding type

for example POE1, you have a huge 2 hander with huge phys damage. if you have a way to convert 50% to fire, any increased phys bonuses ALSO apply to the damage converted to fire. this fire damage then gets the benefit of also getting any increased fire bonuses.

in POE2, in the exact same scenario, 50% of the phys damage is converted to fire but DOES NOT get any increased phys bonuses. it ONLY gets increased fire bonuses (or any increased elemental bonuses).

Some people are crying that this makes conversion not worth it.

Personally i like it as it prevents double dipping and forces players who want to use conversion to plan their builds carefully around it.

conversion is still pretty powerful, but you really need to build around it unlike how we used to.

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FemboyOW#3081 wrote:

Heft increases the flat damage of the skill, applying before conversion.

That's correct. The problem is that it is inconsistent with Wild Storm, which occurs after conversion for Lightning Damage (including damage converted to Lightning), despite having the exact same wording. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1hhy8fk/psa_conversion_rules_in_poe2/

Given current conversion rules, it is illogical for modifiers to damage range to apply both BEFORE and AFTER conversion.

That's the problem, as GGG decided for some reason to completely change established mechanics and/or revert them to what they once were, despite knowing better.

Damage conversion got changed because... reasons.

Ailment application got changed because... reasons.

Crit multi got changed because... reasons.

Conversion is now a new mechanic, similar if not equal to what Grim Dawn does.

Ailments now scale with hit damage, which is so backwards and was already solved in PoE 1. This is how ailments used to work. Projectile Damage now scales ailment damage on projectile skills, like, what?

Crit multi now works the way it used to years ago. Why that is I'm not sure, but GGG changed the way crit multi scaling works waaaaaaaay back in March 2016. It once again seems to be using the base 200% crit multi and increases that, rather than being additive. This was once changed because a.) it was confusing and b.) it was too powerful. Now we are back to having 10% increased crit multi being equal to 20% crit multi in PoE 1, which is just insane.

And don't get me started on all the other nonsense they decided to revert for no apparent reason.