dmg conversation in 80% case

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Mark_GGG wrote:

In PoE2, Conversion happens in two steps. Conversion applied to a skill from it's own skill gem applies separately first before other conversion. This allows conversion from gear/tree to apply to damage that was converted by a skill gem.

In the case you describe, if the active skill gem converts 80% of it's physical damage to fire, assuming for simplicity it started with 100 physical damage, it will have 80 fire damage and 20 physical damage after skill conversion, then Avatar of Fire's non-skill conversion will apply, converting 75% of the physical damage to fire (converting 75% of the fire damage to fire has no effect - converting something to the same thing is ignored entirely), resulting in 95 fire damage and 5 physical - which becomes just 95 fire damage since Avatar of Fire prevents dealing the physical damage at all.

i think it would be 80% conversation +75% from avatar of fire = 155% convert => 100% convert. Iirc that's how it is in poe1. All converts above 100% are weightened to scaled down to match 100%.

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6_din_49#4066 wrote:

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Vipermagi#0984 wrote:

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darrylemoonman#1154 wrote:

Hoping mark can answer this question also.

How does avatar of fire work with support gems?

Lets take this interaction

Avatar of Fire + Hammer of the Gods + Heft (30% more maximum physical damage)

Taking 100 damage, is this correct or incorrect?

100dmg * 1730% (lvl 14) * 1.3 (heft) * 0.75 (avatar) = 1686.75 Fire Dmg

or is heft doing nothing, resulting in

100dmg * 1730% (lvl 14) * N/A (heft) * 0.75 (avatar) = 1297.5 Fire Dmg

You deal exclusively Fire Damage. Heft has no Maximum Phys Damage to increase.
(in other words: Conversion happens before Damage modifiers, they are separate steps)

Heft is increasing the Fire damage from Skeleton Arsonists explosion.

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Without Heft:

With Heft:

My guess is that heft is a special case; it's not a damage multiplier in the standard context of more/increased, but alters the base damage range of the physical damage of the ability.

Interesting find, but my guess is that it is an edge case because it increases the damage range the way it does, rather than simply as a multiplier.

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vzmNitie#2139 wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

In PoE2, Conversion happens in two steps. Conversion applied to a skill from it's own skill gem applies separately first before other conversion. This allows conversion from gear/tree to apply to damage that was converted by a skill gem.

In the case you describe, if the active skill gem converts 80% of it's physical damage to fire, assuming for simplicity it started with 100 physical damage, it will have 80 fire damage and 20 physical damage after skill conversion, then Avatar of Fire's non-skill conversion will apply, converting 75% of the physical damage to fire (converting 75% of the fire damage to fire has no effect - converting something to the same thing is ignored entirely), resulting in 95 fire damage and 5 physical - which becomes just 95 fire damage since Avatar of Fire prevents dealing the physical damage at all.

i think it would be 80% conversation +75% from avatar of fire = 155% convert => 100% convert. Iirc that's how it is in poe1. All converts above 100% are weightened to scaled down to match 100%.

You realise you quoted literally the guy that wrote the code to say how it works, right? It's not the same as poe1 (and what you said is incorrect in PoE1 anyway).

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Vipermagi#0984 wrote:

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6_din_49#4066 wrote:

Heft is increasing the Fire damage from Skeleton Arsonists explosion.

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Without Heft:

With Heft:

All that means is their Fire Damage comes from Damage Added As Fire and not Conversion, right?

nope. They convert damage. Also, both basic physical max damage is increased by 30%, then converted to fire and increased by 30% more again. You can see at his screenshots number in 2nd screen is 60% more then in 1st.

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vzmNitie#2139 wrote:

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Vipermagi#0984 wrote:

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6_din_49#4066 wrote:

Heft is increasing the Fire damage from Skeleton Arsonists explosion.

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Without Heft:

With Heft:

All that means is their Fire Damage comes from Damage Added As Fire and not Conversion, right?

nope. They convert damage. Also, both basic physical max damage is increased by 30%, then converted to fire and increased by 30% more again. You can see at his screenshots number in 2nd screen is 60% more then in 1st.

So is the mainhand physical damage so it's not a case of being applied twice due to conversion. Is there something akin to "heft effect"?

Edit: Sorry, mean to say that the physical damage is increased by ~60%, not 30%.

757/1212=~62% increase from heft on the physical damage range, if heft is literally the only change made in any way something seems mighty screwy about that.

1767/2828=~62% as well, so the fire damage isn't directly benefiting from heft, it's just that the base physical damage increase is being passed on when it (theoretically?) shouldn't be under the new conversion rules. That is probably just a heft weirdness at where it gets applied to the formula. The more weird part is why heft is giving way, way more than 30%.

Or the tooltips aren't yet up to the new way things work.
Edit: Wait. Heft is a multiplier ON the skill.

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UnDeaD_CyBorG#7056 wrote:

Or the tooltips aren't yet up to the new way things work.
Edit: Wait. Heft is a multiplier ON the skill.

Yes? All multipliers are multipliers on the skill.

If you mean it affects the base damage of the skill prior to conversion, that is what I was saying - heft probably affects base damage prior to conversion, which makes a kind of sense even though it probably shouldn't work in the new system.

That said, it still makes no sense that it gives more than double the damage it should give in this case.

GhazzyTV said in one of his videos that Heft increases the damage of Arsonists only because of a bug. So I assume that this will be fixed soon.

Edit:
Or just to be sure let's say I think he said it. I would not want to put words in his mouth. But I am fairly certain.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

GhazzyTV said in one of his videos that Heft increases the damage of Arsonists only because of a bug. So I assume that this will be fixed soon.

Edit:
Or just to be sure let's say I think he said it. I would not want to put words in his mouth. But I am fairly certain.

:shrug: Unless he's spoken to a dev or something he's working with the same information as we are? But yes, it seems like the obvious answer.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

In the case you describe, if the active skill gem converts 80% of it's physical damage to fire, assuming for simplicity it started with 100 physical damage, it will have 80 fire damage and 20 physical damage after skill conversion, then Avatar of Fire's non-skill conversion will apply, converting 75% of the physical damage to fire (converting 75% of the fire damage to fire has no effect - converting something to the same thing is ignored entirely), resulting in 95 fire damage and 5 physical - which becomes just 95 fire damage since Avatar of Fire prevents dealing the physical damage at all.

Would you be so kind to explain why this was changed? This completely alters the utility of conversion and makes it much weaker. Previously, the Fire conversion would have been added together, resulting in a full conversion to Fire. With the example you provided, a skill with 30% conversion would deal 82.5% as Fire (and thus lose 17.5% total damage), at 50% conversion it would deal 87.5%, and at 75% it would deal 93.75%. Why on earth was this changed? You cannot reach full conversion with AoF anymore, which defeats the whole point of the keystone, no?

For builds that use sources of extra % damage, i.e. 30% added as Cold (using the same numbers as above):

New AoF (75%):

100 Phys -> 80 Fire 20 Phys 30 Cold -> 80 Fire + 15 Fire + 22.5 Fire = 117.5 Fire Damage

Old AoF (50%):

100 Phys -> 100 Fire 30 Cold -> = 115 Fire Damage

It's a pain in the butt to keep track of every new change for established mechanics that now suddenly work differently, i.e. Bleed as well.

Edit: Whoops. Fixed an error.