T17 once again are ruining this league can GGG just discard t17 concept?

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Mash, you have a much higher pain tolerance than I do. Very revealing stuff, but still one question beckons: still sane, exile? :D

I can't imagine going through such lengths, but I respect the effort you put into that analysis.

@Echo: it's funny you keep bringing up games like Elden Ring in discussions, because if we learn anything from those games it is that when we're faced with an apparently unsurmountable wall of difficulty, the joy of overcoming it with sheer determination, preparation and practice is tumultous.

If I hit a wall in any game I take it as an opportunity to reflect and see where my errors may be, and work on improving on it.

Just as an example, I started playing Rust only a few months ago. I am no FPS player at all, and on official servers with high population I get smoked often enough. However, I do not let that deter me from my own goals and steadily improve on every aspect of the game. I accept where I am now and that other players are simply better, and with that knowledge I can become better myself. The alternative would be complacency and frustration, and I don't have it in me to be miserable over a video game.

This reminds me of a Sisyphus and his rock, which plummets down after days of carefully pushing it up the mountain:) To waste so much time trying to explain your point, only to be reduced to

"you do not currently have character that trivializes T17, thus your criticism of T17 design cannot be valid, you are just salty you cannot faceroll T17 yourself. And if you could, you'd never ever said a bad thing about T17".

Each word about this stance is false. My character that I brought to light is too weak for T17 bosses, I never disputed that ffs. I just asked what defense mechanics could I use for it, and it led us here. And it cannot serve as argument for or against the general balance and accessibility of T17 maps. You have characters that can steamroll T17, does that make T17 better?

Since everyone forgot, this thread didn't start as dick measuring contest, nor did I try to turn it into one. If all you guys care about is a reason to say "Me better than you" one more time, glad to have provided your daily dose of hubris.

I personally think t17 are fine as they are meant for the top 1% of players anyways. What I do think they might be a problem for though is competitive poe namely gauntlet race. It will just add so much of an rng element to gauntlet that I think it may be bad for poe high level races. I don't exactly see this as a big problem but it might be A problem.

At any rate it's more a 1% problem and should probably be decided by the 1% community not just random people on a forum.

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Echothesis wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

Mash, you have a much higher pain tolerance than I do. Very revealing stuff, but still one question beckons: still sane, exile? :D

I can't imagine going through such lengths, but I respect the effort you put into that analysis.

@Echo: it's funny you keep bringing up games like Elden Ring in discussions, because if we learn anything from those games it is that when we're faced with an apparently unsurmountable wall of difficulty, the joy of overcoming it with sheer determination, preparation and practice is tumultous.

If I hit a wall in any game I take it as an opportunity to reflect and see where my errors may be, and work on improving on it.

Just as an example, I started playing Rust only a few months ago. I am no FPS player at all, and on official servers with high population I get smoked often enough. However, I do not let that deter me from my own goals and steadily improve on every aspect of the game. I accept where I am now and that other players are simply better, and with that knowledge I can become better myself. The alternative would be complacency and frustration, and I don't have it in me to be miserable over a video game.

This reminds me of a Sisyphus and his rock, which plummets down after days of carefully pushing it up the mountain:) To waste so much time trying to explain your point, only to be reduced to

"you do not currently have character that trivializes T17, thus your criticism of T17 design cannot be valid, you are just salty you cannot faceroll T17 yourself. And if you could, you'd never ever said a bad thing about T17".

Each word about this stance is false. My character that I brought to light is too weak for T17 bosses, I never disputed that ffs. I just asked what defense mechanics could I use for it, and it led us here. And it cannot serve as argument for or against the general balance and accessibility of T17 maps. You have characters that can steamroll T17, does that make T17 better?

Since everyone forgot, this thread didn't start as dick measuring contest, nor did I try to turn it into one. If all you guys care about is a reason to say "Me better than you" one more time, glad to have provided your daily dose of hubris.

It's not a dick measuring contest at all. I call your attitude towards personal improvement detrimental to your enjoyment of games and give my personal experience on walls I have hit in games and my experience overcoming them. As Mashgesture pointed out there are a myriad of things you could do to get better at T17s, one of which is practice, which you say you don't.

People have pointed out critical flaws in your character's defences. You have deflected saying you'd rather not use those, one of those reasons being aesthetics. At that point you forfeited every right to criticize the difficulty of T17s as you yourself raised the difficulty with your choices.

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

It's not a dick measuring contest at all. I call your attitude towards personal improvement detrimental to your enjoyment of games and give my personal experience on walls I have hit in games and my experience overcoming them. As Mashgesture pointed out there are a myriad of things you could do to get better at T17s, one of which is practice, which you say you don't.

Honestly, your response is a rather offensive reduction and specific nitpicking, probably because you don't want to face the underlying criticism. That's fine by me, but don't make that other people's problems by whining about T17s on and on with the same platitudes when provably the fault lies with your lack of knowledge & experience.

This just keeps getting more and more bizzare:) Aren't you guys the ones pointing at my poor character as the explanation to everything you disagree with, and providing "analysis" in the form of "hey you don't have chaos resist and don't dodge a boss (barely practiced) properly"? Was asking about defenses and agreeing to a party run in good will "making your problems other people's problems"?

If you disagree with my stance on T17 in general, that's fine, but stop mixing my personal poe progress into this, I beg you.

If anything, now I am interested what will you say if I take the time to make T17 viable character and then still say why I think T17 is bad:) Spoiler: it will be pretty much same things about putting non-removeable random layers on pinnacle bosses, without regards to outdated mechanics of some archetypes. Wonder how you will find a way to blame it all on me then.

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

People have pointed out critical flaws in your character's defences. You have deflected saying you'd rather not use those, one of those reasons being aesthetics. At that point you forfeited every right to criticize the difficulty of T17s as you yourself raised the difficulty with your choices.

This is certainly true in some situations but it's not in this case. I just went back a little to see where this whole nonsense started and this was his first post on the matter:

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Echothesis wrote:

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Kioskara wrote:

Having to spend hundreds of chaos rerolling these maps because they have a million binary "Your build now doesn't work" mods or "These mods juice the bosses so hard they're basically impossible unless you oneshot them" is so annoying. It ruined the last league for me, and it's currently ruining this league as well.

This sums up my attitude to T17 best. Resented them since first release because you cannot do them without modifiers. GGG broke their own core design, which allowed weaker/not-using-new-meta-from-current-patch builds to tune maps to their characters. As it is, they need another "16.5" map tier to "serve as bridge between T16 and T17":)

Yes, chaos sink is needed (against smarter players not falling for crafting casino:)), but rerolling "you die" mods on T17 is the most frustrating and abusive way to make a sink.

And i think that is a valid complaint no matter whether you can do t17 or not. Buildbricking mods on maps have always been nothing but a currency tax and aren't related to actual difficulty and that tax is just plain higher for t17.

Him having a glass cannon and refusing to work on that is an issue in itself but it has very little to do with the complaint raised here. The last two pages were just someone being a dick as always. Nothing new arose from them. Echo pretty much admitted that his build wasn't up for it because of lacking defenses. Making a giant fuss over proving that despite him admitting it 5 pages prior is just silly.

They actually went and removed most of the build breaking mods from T17s in the last patch so that no longer is up to date

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

It's not a dick measuring contest at all. I call your attitude towards personal improvement detrimental to your enjoyment of games and give my personal experience on walls I have hit in games and my experience overcoming them. As Mashgesture pointed out there are a myriad of things you could do to get better at T17s, one of which is practice, which you say you don't.

People have pointed out critical flaws in your character's defences. You have deflected saying you'd rather not use those, one of those reasons being aesthetics. At that point you forfeited every right to criticize the difficulty of T17s as you yourself raised the difficulty with your choices.

Yea I mean they offered to meet and I agreed.

And they are just walking back again trying to change the argument to something we never tried to say about them or ourselves. We aren't trying to think of ourselves or them as any less of a player/person.


The whole purpose was to try to figure out what exactly the issue was. Their character blasts through the map just fine and 0 issues, granted there's no buffs to the map, the map had no effects like ground degen or shaper tentacles..., and then of course 0 offensive modifiers.

Like all it would take to kill their character would be just a little bit of chaos on anything at the wrong time and they'll just fall over. We see this in the boss fights.



The problems come up with the bosses like they said but not for the reason they originally thought. And this was highlighted in the clips, messages sent, and their forum posts. They thought it had to do with physical damage, when in reality, it has nothing to do with physical.


Its just very odd to me that the majority of people with the most opinions on t17s have the least experience with them. But that's why its important for GGG to see stuff like this when considering changes.

I dont want players like this dictating any idea of balance at that level, they are not qualified. This would be the equivalent of someone playing 2 minutes of Elden ring and then complaining to the devs that the game is too hard.

You need more experience, and more research to really have a better and more critical angle to have something actionable to say about these kinds of things.

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Mashgesture wrote:

...
Its just very odd to me that the majority of people with the most opinions on t17s have the least experience with them. But that's why its important for GGG to see stuff like this when considering changes.

I dont want players like this dictating any idea of balance at that level, they are not qualified. This would be the equivalent of someone playing 2 minutes of Elden ring and then complaining to the devs that the game is too hard.

You need more experience, and more research to really have a better and more critical angle to have something actionable to say about these kinds of things.

Even if your childish behaviour during our "stream" didn't hint at this, now you again admitted you are not a developer, and likely don't know first thing about game design.

GGG_Neon account from recent announcement had 12 settlers challenges on live server. If those who make balance decisions actually grinded the game as much as you, we wouldn't be in this mess, as they would've seen how many mechanics are outdated and cannot scale well enough to T17 level.

Yesterday I tried making Ice storm build from whispering ice staff, was long interested to see the scaling. With 1100+ int and crits, damage is absolutely pathetic, not even oneshotting T16. While I am tanky and can outlast everything just standing under frost shield with arctic armor and behind frost walls, the spell is shit. And it was designed by people you respect so much.

Even if GGG plays their own game, it likely consists of a short runs on a debug servers with console commands. Playtime is by no means a definition of "experience". I watched this game for 3 years, and don't need to grind it 24/7 to have an opinion.

One of the devs must have made it to to t17s in hc ;P See patch

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Strickl3r wrote:

One of the devs must have made it to to t17s in hc ;P See patch

Neon_GGG is considered top 5 HC in every league and hes QOL I ono what you're talking about lol