Counter-attack rework?

I might even say that 3.23 counterattack builds were the strongest they have EVER been in the history of PoE. And there were so many different ways you could build them too.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Next league, follow a Slayer Reckoning / Vengeance build guide and then come back here and tell me counterattacks are dead.

13 people on PoE Ninja are using a Vengeance build, 3 users are doing Reckoning, so yes; you were far out on the fields when using the word "popular". And while "strong" is rather subjective, I've yet to see evidence of it being "strong", at least in my book - compared to alternatives. And when it comes to balance, comparing to alternatives is always important IMO.

I would consider those builds as "doable", maybe "viable" if stretching it. But "strong" in the grand scheme of things? Well, you do you.

The question here is: Is it worth spending 6L to throw it into a random melee build? Not really. Is it worth building around instead of other melee skills? I find that hard to believe.

I have a cast on stun DD jugg that does 27m w/ 80k phys max hit, 120k ele / chaos max hit, and infinite EHP (pinnacle config) due to defiance and bloodnotch. Also ranged.

This is a relatively cheap build for deathless sim 30 (might not be next league, who knows). I think reckoning / vengeance would need to beat this in order for me to consider it, since playstyle is so similar (without range). I'd like this to be the case, instead of casting spells with a big staff on a frikin jugg... not exactly fitting the fantasy.

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Phrazz wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Next league, follow a Slayer Reckoning / Vengeance build guide and then come back here and tell me counterattacks are dead.

13 people on PoE Ninja are using a Vengeance build, 3 users are doing Reckoning, so yes; you were far out on the fields when using the word "popular". And while "strong" is rather subjective, I've yet to see evidence of it being "strong", at least in my book - compared to alternatives. And when it comes to balance, comparing to alternatives is always important IMO.

I would consider those builds as "doable", maybe "viable" if stretching it. But "strong" in the grand scheme of things? Well, you do you.

The question here is: Is it worth spending 6L to throw it into a random melee build? Not really. Is it worth building around instead of other melee skills? I find that hard to believe.

I don't even understand what you are trying to compare. Since their release, counterattacks have always functioned the same way. You cannot compare them to other melee builds because....they have NEVER been like other melee builds. If you like the counterattack playstyle, then you already know this. If you don't, then we stop right there. There has never been an instance where people compared the performance of reckoning to the performance of something like cyclone or ground slam. Counter-attacks, and the corresponding playstyle has always been niche, more similar to a rf build than anything else.

Counterattackers already KNOW the weaknesses of a counterattack build.

To truly assess the "state" of counterattacks, you need to see 1) how they perform in current PoE versus how they used to perform, and 2) whether or not they can function within the game at all late-stage.

1) Counterattacks hit harder and faster than ever before. Quality bonuses offer more cooldown recovery than old necessary helmet enchants. Newer items like Ashes make it easier to scale cdr to unheard of levels. More reliable damage, more reliable recovery, and MORE damage in general.

2) Late-stage counterattacks shine in heavily juiced content. So long as you are constantly getting attacked, you are triggering millions of damage every fraction of a second. The second build i linked (from LAST league) was dealing 60 million damage. That's not "weak" by any sense of the word. And the trigger rate was 7-8 times a second.

We aren't talking heavy strike here: we are talking a strong, medium fast mapper, with oodles of defensive strength.

I have no idea what "strong" is to you, but anything over 10 million damage, large clear capability and high defenses is damn near A-tier or S-tier. It doesn't have to perform the same as an OG boneshatter build, or lightning arrow build. It performs great on its own.

And frankly, if you haven't made one in a while....you really don't even have any idea what you are talking about concerning their viability. My reckoning slayer (based on the second linked build with tweaks) last league was fully capable of juiced, delirious, high spirit-buffed maps while being pretty much immortal. He just couldn't do any bossing. At all. And certain rares took a while or just needed to be skipped. Exactly what I expect from a counterattacker.


And the question you ask at the end of your post? Who in the world of PoE asks something like that to determine whether a build works or not? No one just throws a skill into a different build to determine if its good or not. And yes: if you build around it, you can make a strong, tanky, fast juiced map clearer. If you find that "hard to believe", why are you even in this conversation? You seem to have no interest in counterattacks.

Ex: why do people make RF builds? They require an ABSURD amount of currency to reach even low levels of damage....Your questions: slap 6L rf into any other spell build, does it work? No. Is it worth making an entire build around it? Damage-wise, the answer is NO. You can make tons of other builds with way way way way higher damage output for a fraction of the investment. And yet it remains one of the most popular (this time for real) builds of all time.

Even the current Adorned super-rf builds that require multiple mirrors....are only putting out less than 10 million damage and sit there forever against bosses.

Counterattacks perform(ed) better in terms of damage, for less investment, while utilizing the same no-button, immortal playstyle.

RF is wildly popular because of PohX's hard work and incredibly detailed guides. Counterattacks are less popular because there aren't people making guides for it as readily. And yet...counterattacks perform better in terms of damage, for less investment, while utilizing the same no-button, immortal playstyle.

So remind me: What are you comparing?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You seem to have no interest in counterattacks.

I have a huge interest in Counter-Attack skills - IF they are a valid choice when it comes to balance/power compared to other skills/builds. That's the point here. But we are on two different planets here, it seems - as I would never call a build having to "skip certain rares" as "good".

I want balance to create a scenario where skills are a valid choice without needeing "special interest".

And that last question was meant as a question of: Are Counter-Attack skills MEANT to be built around, or are they MEANT to be an addition to other melee skills - defining their roles within the game. If they are meant as a main damage skill, I think they are lacking in several areas (as you say yourself; no bossing, skipping rares, HAVE to uber-juice content). And if they are meant as a supplement, I think most builds are too socket-starved to implement them in a valuable way.

Look... I'm not saying you can't make a decent Counter-Attack build. ALL skills can work in certain scenarios, with maybe a couple of exceptions. That doesn't mean ALL skills are "strong" or even "good". It's simple: If a build is VERY strong, people will play it, at least if it has a decent power-to-cost ratio.

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Phrazz wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You seem to have no interest in counterattacks.

I have a huge interest in Counter-Attack skills - IF they are a valid choice when it comes to balance/power compared to other skills/builds. That's the point here. But we are on two different planets here, it seems - as I would never call a build having to "skip certain rares" as "good".

I want balance to create a scenario where skills are a valid choice without needeing "special interest".

You must be playing a different game....do you only ever play the meta flavor of the league? Because that is what you just described.

Special interest is literally THE game. Creating a unique build that you haven't ever done before. Discovering new combos and mechanics.

Making the cheapest, strongest build over and over and over again is not a good metric for whats "good" or "viable" (your words).

You are right: if that is indeed how you approach this game, then we are on two completely different planets here. You must have never made any off-meta build in your 12 years playing this game...because what you just described is so anti-PoE to me

I'm not going to throw away a build as non-viable simply because it doesn't have the clearspeed as Lightning Arrow. I am not going to write off a build because it might cost 100 divs to get to the same point as another that might cost 10 divs. I create builds that perform well, no matter the cost, and if they are fun then they are fun. If they are ripping through t16 maps, juiced maps, then they are pretty damn powerful.

I'm not sitting here worrying about how my build maybe performs 10-20% slower than a boneshatter build. That doesn't make it trash to me.

If everything performed exactly the same, there would be no need for different skills.

The problem with current-Glad is that block was always an extremely limited, binary option for defense. If you didn't have enough it was better to have nothing.

With armor you get pretty good, reliable in fact defense options against smaller less avoidable hits.

With evasion you get a lot for very little and that makes it easier than block which typically offers nothing in ES or Life.

Dodge is somewhat the same as Block but I would say Block is the worst due to investment costs.

So when Glad lost versatile combatant that destroyed the ascendancy. It just isn't worth it given the amount of investment to make block work.

Block nodes should come with life or es or armor or ev or some combination of both. So that people who want block can make a pretty good character with a steep block investment.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You must be playing a different game....do you only ever play the meta flavor of the league? Because that is what you just described.

I VERY rarely go META or FOTM. I ALWAYS do a minimum of one melee character each league, usually more - and it's been a while since a melee skill other than Boneshatter has been META. Melee is my jam - it always will be.

I sometimes create my own, unique builds - sometime they work, sometimes not. But if they work, I don't go around talking about them as "strong" in the grand scheme of things in a game filled with over-the-top powerfull spells and ranged builds. ALL skills can do juiced T16 maps - that doesn't make them strong, that makes them... Average(?).

And I'm not advocating for all skills or builds to "perform exactly the same". But I do want most skills to be in the same ballpark when it comes to possibilities. But in a game where some skills perform WAY worse than others, I think we should be somewhat restrictive of using the word "strong" in comparison.

But again, we disagree. We can put it to rest now, I won't discuss this any further. If you want the last word, be my guest :)

Counterattacks are great for proccing fortify with honoured tattoo of the Pa, or the fortify mastery.

I use vengeance on my shield throw build and it procs fortify quite well.