Feedback and Suggestions - The Achilles' heel of Raise Zombie and the way I feel they could fix it. - Forum

Zombies do need an AI rework... I completely agree with this.	Posted by Vandakai on Aug 7, 2023, 3:47:11 PM Quote this Post
I'd also like to point out.... It is a basic problem that we even have to HAVE this argument. If the basic AI of the minion is so bad that we need supports/uniques/mods to modify it then...why does that particular AI exist in the first place? Who or what does it benefit? Besides temporary minions, who are already innately aggressive, is there a single person running their main minion offensive build that does NOT have or need their minions aggressive? Last edited by jsuslak313 on Aug 7, 2023, 3:55:44 PM	Posted by jsuslak313 on Aug 7, 2023, 3:55:08 PM On Probation Quote this Post
" It is a basic problem that we even have to HAVE this argument. If the basic AI of the minion is so bad that we need supports/uniques/mods to modify it then...why does that particular AI exist in the first place? Who or what does it benefit? It made sense back in the day when the two different types of minion behavior were just aggressive and non aggressive, since the implementation of meat shield support and ways of making other perm minions aggressive such as primordial might zombies have just been neglected. In my opinion atleast. " Zombies do need an AI rework... I completely agree with this. Thank you so much for this. And thanks to the other people chiming in and bolstering my argument or giving me insight about various things I hadn't thought about, I was quite anxious about making a forum post but it turned out way better than I had anticipated.	Posted by addra1 on Aug 7, 2023, 4:04:18 PM Quote this Post
" addra1 wrote: It made sense back in the day when the two different types of minion behavior were just aggressive and non aggressive, since the implementation of meat shield support and ways of making other perm minions aggressive such as primordial might zombies have just been neglected. In my opinion atleast. It's true that Feeding Frenzy/Meat Shield exacerbated the issue....BUT I distinctly remember folks complaining about Zombie AI even back in the day. They would loaf around, move slowly, not follow the player, not attack enemies even when they were being attacked, etc. And that is STILL true today. Ed: Yep, looked at some of the old archived comments complaining about zombie AI. Ignoring bosses...wandering away from the player...etc. Noticeably, there aren't many similar threads about other minions except the stone golem. Last edited by jsuslak313 on Aug 7, 2023, 4:18:12 PM	Posted by jsuslak313 on Aug 7, 2023, 4:13:00 PM On Probation Quote this Post
" It's true that Feeding Frenzy/Meat Shield exacerbated the issue....BUT I distinctly remember folks complaining about Zombie AI even back in the day. They would loaf around, move slowly, not follow the player, not attack enemies even when they were being attacked, etc. And that is STILL true today. Yep, it's never been GOOD but it's never been as bad in comparison to other options as it has been for the last year or two.	Posted by addra1 on Aug 7, 2023, 7:13:26 PM Quote this Post
" jsuslak313 wrote: ^you missed the mark AGAIN. I'm NOT asking for health buffs. I'm merely pointing out that you are simply wrong in your statements about zombies. What does it matter how many zombies you have, if they all die? 1 golem that survives serves its purpose BETTER than 10 zombies that all die. Also they benefit EXACTLY THE SAME as any other minion with auras...their numbers have no effect on their aura benefits lol. In fact, it probably makes them harder to use with auras because they spread out and go out of range. Unlike less minions, which are easier to see and easier to maintain coverage with. The POINT is that, if we were able to control the Zombie AI, we wouldn't NEED any buffs to the zombies! As you said, zombies are powerful in their own right and you CAN make a zombie build. The problem is their inherent AI making them a lackluster choice in EVERY situation, unless you can get around the AI issue. At the core of this issue is the identity of the zombie. You yourself said they are more suited by the DEVELOPERS to be meat shields. Yet the stats and their behavior say otherwise. Okay...then you can run them as DPS with feeding frenzy. But then you are left with a 5L minion that likely doesn't deal nearly as much damage as other dps minions and also still dies because now you've had to make up for the dps loss of a 6L with gear and tree damage over survivability nodes. Okay...so what's left? Make them full meat shields with minion life and meat shield support because without the DEFENSIVE AI, they don't act as meat shields...but then all the zombie uniques become mildly useless and they merely serve as "fluff" to the build. The problem is the AI, and how it affects zombies more than most other (possibly ALL other) minions in the game. AI is a basic function, not a buff, and should be treated as such. Golems have Primordial Might as a way to alter their behavior without losing an entire support gem in the process. Temp minions are inherently aggressive with good AI. Specters all have their own AIs. It is the lowly zombie that gets the shaft, all we want is some equality gosh darn it! Yeah but you didn't read my post, because there is more Zombies and because things like auras are more effective based on numbers Zombies will be more tanky so your idea of them dying is only applicable again in the early game. The late game this is a non issue and even if one of them happens to die you have another 10-13 crashing on the enemy. And the fact that because of their numbers necromantic aegis gives each of them a lot of flat benefits. You are getting more bang for your buck numerically. The only reason Golems as you say perform better on a dps account is because the point behind golems is that each of them is individually stronger and you get a lot less of them, heck you don't even need to make them aggressive as their aggro distance is huge, and the only Golems that need to be aggressive are Frost and Lightning Golems because Frost golems are squishy and lightning golems can attack from half the map away. Unless you want to go 2 clayshapers and a primordial gem with elementalist ascendancy you will always have 2-3 golems as opposed to 13-15 Zombies if you don't get that sceptre. And numerically its in the Zombies favour. Now I am not opposed to an AI fix in fact I would want all minion AI to be reworked but now the question comes in that where is Zombie gonna stand amongst other minions. Because right now all you are incentivising is AFK gameplay by making them aggresive. Last edited by Deathstar699 on Aug 8, 2023, 7:11:02 AM	Posted by Deathstar699 on Aug 8, 2023, 7:07:32 AM Quote this Post
" innervation wrote: " Deathstar699 wrote: I mean the point of Zombies in lore are dumb so it makes sense that their ai is bad. But say we make it good that they aggro out the gate and its not bound to gems, what makes Zombies special from other minions? Like at all beyond their slam attack which sentinels of Dominance and herald of purity get anyway so what do Zombies have that makes them unique? I mean yes their ai is a detriment but once you fix it their clear speed is really good but now they are a perminant minion unlike their comtemporaries? I generally agree with you that all minions deserve their own niche, else gems become superfluous pointless bloat. But why should zombies unique thing be that their AI sucks? Like we wouldn't do that with any other archetype right? At least not intentionally. I like to use Creeping Frost as an example back when it was Arctic Breath and didn't have it's newly added niche of the cold dot puddle moving around the map. It used to basically be fireball. Fireball was an AoE projectile that could ignite. Arctic Breath was an AoE projectile that would put a DoT puddle down. Basically the same other than element. Back then, to me, it would have been unacceptable for one to just be strictly worse than the other, because all that would do is fuck over anyone with a frost (or fire depending on which gem was worse) fantasy. Imagine how silly it would be if one did half the damage of the other and you had to explain that to a new player. Oh yeah, Arctic Breath does 50% less damage because if it did the same dmg as Fireball it would be too similar to Fireball. A gem's niche probably shouldn't come from basic usability. And I know this is off topic but it actually reminds me of melee. Does all the damage of ranged, you just have to stand next to your enemies. That's the niche. It's a pretty frustrating niche though in practice. I agree with this take in its entirety.	Posted by Deathstar699 on Aug 8, 2023, 7:13:03 AM Quote this Post
" Deathstar699 wrote: I agree with this take in its entirety. It's funny you agree with him....because that is EXACTLY what you have been arguing against this entire thread. SMH man As for "incentivizing afk gameplay"....what planet are you living on? That is essentially the point of choosing a perma-minion build over a temporary minion build, or any other type of build. The reason people run permanent minions is to NOT babysit the minion. That is the definition of PERMANENT. The goal of ALL permanent minion builds (100% of them) is to sit back, allow your minions to do most of the work, while you kite and cast buffs. And if you are really really rich and have godlike gear, you don't even need the buffs and can just kite around. That is the very essence of the archetype. Otherwise...you would be playing something else. Last edited by jsuslak313 on Aug 8, 2023, 6:35:50 PM	Posted by jsuslak313 on Aug 8, 2023, 6:29:46 PM On Probation Quote this Post
" "incentivizing afk gameplay" When I read this I figured he was talking about how certain minion builds, even zombies before the massive baron nerf could AFK farm things like blight maps and it had me scratching my head because that's a completely different issue that needs to be tackled seperately and making zombies wouldn't exacerbate the issue in the slightest because golems are just better at doing that.	Posted by addra1 on Aug 8, 2023, 8:02:35 PM Quote this Post
^and SRS is even better than them at that too. Hold down the rmb, every map and every boss melts. This is true of almost every skill in the game at some point in the build progression. Nowadays, in order for any minion build (except SRS...) to truly "afk", it requires absurd amount of investment. At that point of investment, it SHOULD do that!	Posted by jsuslak313 on Aug 8, 2023, 8:12:15 PM On Probation Quote this Post