Why is the skill gem system dumbed down in PoE2?

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alhazred70 wrote:

I have countless times not put on upgrades and countless times felt disappointed or had my excitement dampened by item upgrades in POE because I simply couldn't use them. And the only reason I couldn't use them was my 5L or 6L was that item and I didn't have fuses, or my 4L is in those gloves and I can't get the colors on these much better gloves without extra investment that I sometimes do not have.

Countless times an exciting upgrade just ended up sitting in my stash, forgotten or outmoded by things that had nothing at all to do with the rolls on the item.

Its a basic point that a game about gear shouldn't pop your dopamine bubble from finding an upgrade by making other factors that ruin upgrades on a regular basis. Its very fundamental game design.

Am I getting this quote wrong when I think you don't understand RNGGG?

You look at the 5-6 affixes and claim to have gotten a great drop, then get frustrated that it doesn't have the proper sockets/colors/links already in it when you don't have the currency (or spent what you found) to fix it. That's part of the RNG, too, but a part you can change before it becomes useless if you're wise with other RNG: currency drops.

Meanwhile, I get a drop with near perfect sockets and some useful mods, but it doesn't have the necessary three to make it a replacement, AND I'm not getting the multicraft option in time to fix it or willing to spend annuls/divines to do so on such a low item. It's my table-flipping rage, but your legit complaint? I disagree.

Turning a blind eye to RNGGG - this game's ridiculous take on ultra-random drops requiring trade to compensate, then having one of the worst 'economic' systems in modern games (which spurred the desire for SSF, IIRC, and divination cards or eye-bleeding/migraine-inducing farming isn't a valid alternative) - by selectively applying it only to certain aspects of a gear-based game doesn't justify changes being made. GGG made this game's RNG what it is, which has nothing to do with balance they never got right, power creep they promoted with release metas, or league mechanics so clearly boring/over-the-top you knew they weren't going core - at least as is.

Every part of item creation is RNG, some thankfully alterable, and GGG has had 100% control of it. It didn't go enough your way or mine, but we all deal with it. Some of us just get the shorter end of the stick. You get those nice rare 4L items for quest completions, unidentified until you choose which you want, then find them severely lacking? RNGGG, baby!

One MAJOR positive from the new way skills and gems will be treated: (separate from dumbed down/streamlined argument)

No more chromatic orbs, fuse orbs, binding orbs, jeweler's orbs, etc. The game NEEDS less currencies. This is an excellent step towards cutting down wholely unnecessary bloat. It'll streamline drops, it'll streamline trade, it'll streamline crafting, etc. I guess you could argue it is "simpler" in a way...but the system we currently have has become unnecessary, rather than complex.

# of sockets on dropped items ONLY matters through the first maybe 4 acts of the campaign, on the first character. Beyond that, getting full sockets is easy. Jewelers = useless. Links only matter for 6L, and as GGG described this severely handicapped build diversity and skill usage in favor of 1-2 button playstyles. The color game SORT OF reinforced the base item "type" or specialization, but with the crafting options even this became obsolete long ago.

There really isn't anything in the current system that HAS to stay, apart from making early game drops matter a bit more. I would rather trade additional functionality of ALL drops for that any day of the week!

YES the color/link/socketing is iconic to PoE...but its also aged its way out of importance. We have too many ways to simply make an item exactly how we want it, so the entire system has lost its way and only serves as a currency sink for all the semi-useless currency that drops.

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Ax2Grind wrote:

Am I getting this quote wrong when I think you don't understand RNGGG?

You look at the 5-6 affixes and claim to have gotten a great drop, then get frustrated that it doesn't have the proper sockets/colors/links already in it when you don't have the currency (or spent what you found) to fix it. That's part of the RNG, too, but a part you can change before it becomes useless if you're wise with other RNG: currency drops.

Its not so much that you're misunderstanding me as not understanding GGG and why most other ARPG's don't do this, or why GGG no longer wants to with POE2.

Lets be honest you also seem to be trying to use my post as a soap box about "RNGGG" a narrative agenda that I'm probably sympathetic with if you weren't trying to pull the soap box up to mine and shout louder so to speak.

You're apparently not understanding (or accepting) GGG's own explanation and examples for why the system happened (the RNGGG as you call it was an unintended side effect) and why they want to make the system better. GGG has literally stated that the extra RNG, decision pain points and delayed gratification was an unintended side effect; and that this side effect worsens the core loop, makes upgrades less visceral, and throws a wet blanket on many items (chest pieces) that can be upgrades but become unused disappointments due to 6 linking/coloring.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be trying to justify the side effects of the system as something GGG artfully (or sadistically) wanted in the game and still intends as deliberate game design when we know for a fact that both of those things are not true at least according to them.

To be sure I am also not a fan of what you call "RNGGG" (Chris' seeming viewpoint that there's no such thing as too stingy AKA never too many "Axis of randomness") and very vocally so. I don't need a lecture on how to suck eggs, they've clearly shown this added layer was unwanted and unintended, and are changing it, so in good faith I'll take them at face value.

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alhazred70 wrote:

(the RNGGG as you call it was an unintended side effect)

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be trying to justify the side effects of the system as something GGG artfully (or sadistically) wanted in the game and still intends as deliberate game design when we know for a fact that both of those things are not true at least according to them.

I agree with MOST of what you wrote...except these above statements. I vehemently disagree that these stresses were "unintended", and I also feel strongly that GGG did indeed INTENTIONALLY want these systems in the game.

Except these decisions were made over 10 years ago. The game is not the same size, or even the same game as it was long ago. As such, the systems that worked as intended long ago no longer work for GGG: at least in relation to PoE 2. No matter what CW has said in public, the fact remains that this system went completely unchanged (for the most part) for a DECADE. If this was all an "unintended side effect", it would have been fixed YEARS ago. But it wasn't.

What is being said now by devs is completely in defense of their new product coming out. And the mentality shift is more-so BECAUSE things are changing and less because they WANTED things to change for all this time. We do NOT know for a fact that the things you stated are not true, even looking at GGG's own words. Their mentality has "shifted", but that doesn't make it blanketed truth for the entirety of the game history.

It is ABSOLUTELY true that what you said is the CURRENT message being given...but lack of action for a decade, and former interviews prior to 2019 speak to a VERY different game vision. Hell, look at Ruthless!

To put it bluntly: GGG is engaged in PR "Poltician-speech" since the release of PoE 2 information in 2019. But if you look at their actions critically for yourself, instead of accepting their word as truth, you realize that there is a LOT of waffle in their new "reasoning". Their actions, inactions, and new updates across the last 10 years speaks a hell of a lot more to their "intentions".

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jsuslak313 wrote:

It is ABSOLUTELY true that what you said is the CURRENT message being given...but lack of action for a decade, and former interviews prior to 2019 speak to a VERY different game vision. Hell, look at Ruthless!

I mean its possible to come to a realization when you start asking "what can POE2 do better".

Otherwise I see them changing the system, I hear them multiple times talk about it having been an accidental unwanted (on hindsight) side effect of coupling gem sockets to gear, and I see no reason to "attribute to malice" what can be adequately explained by inexperience. Its easy for me to believe college kids accidentally added one too many axis' of RNG and figured it out or acknowledge it on hindsight.

There will be less bubblegum currency? Gold is being introduced.

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alhazred70 wrote:

accidental unwanted (on hindsight) side effect of coupling gem sockets to gear, and I see no reason to "attribute to malice" what can be adequately explained by inexperience. Its easy for me to believe college kids accidentally added one too many axis' of RNG and figured it out or acknowledge it on hindsight.

Again, though....if that were true and this was "accidental" and EVEN if the hindsight started BEFORE they revealed the skill gem and socket change in 2019, they made ZERO changes to the existing system. If you give them the benefit of the doubt, and they began critically assessing what DIDN'T work in PoE 1 way back then, the devs could have EASILY made fixes to the original game. Cut the fuse cost WAY down. Add even more affordable color crafting. Etc. Even without the total overhaul that PoE 2 will have, they COULD have fixed the original system if it is "true" that it was unintentional and unwanted. This "hindsight" would have taken place at least FIVE YEARS ago with the development of PoE 2.

But they didn't change PoE 1. And THIS is why it is the safer assumption that everything WAS intentional: the struggle, the rng, the fuse/chrome loop, all of it was intentionally added to the game at the start, and INTENTIONALLY kept in the game.

It is equally intentional that they are changing the system for PoE 2, but it simply isn't credible for them to turn around and point to all the problems the old system caused as "accidental" while actively not even attempting to rectify these "accidents".

It's also not attributing anything to "malice" but rather their own design preferences. There's nothing malicious about the developers wanting a tedious, rng-filled, grindfest. It is simply their intentional design choice. They even named their company after that exact style of game play. I doubt the devs are sitting in a room rubbing their hands together menacingly thinking "how can we punish and torture our players today?".

When things ARE accidentally operating unintentionally, you can bet they fix that right away or at least try to!

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alhazred70 wrote:

D3 has lots of problems but its not a 1 button cookie clicker, the combat still has positioning you can and often will use multiple skills on various builds. which is interesting because its skills and passives are vastly simplified. D4 also has lots of problems... but every build pressing only 1 button is also not one of them, and it has an even more simplistic skill twig.

Well I can only speak from memory but last I played D3 it had degenerated into giving you a freebie class set at the beginning of a season with an effect like "skill X deals 50,000% increased damage" and then you'd make a "build" featuring X on your RMB and using support skills on the other buttons.

I don't think focusing on 1 or 2 active skills is bad, I feel the itemization and getting strong items should have more meaning. D4's itemization has stuff like "+0.3% damage during moonlight", which is only bizarre imo.

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I have countless times not put on upgrades and countless times felt disappointed or had my excitement dampened by item upgrades in POE because I simply couldn't use them. And the only reason I couldn't use them was my 5L or 6L was that item and I didn't have fuses, or my 4L is in those gloves and I can't get the colors on these much better gloves without extra investment that I sometimes do not have.

I understand that but I don't agree that aspect should be removed. I like the whole chromatic/fusing interaction, knowing which colors are likely etc. I also think this loop is simple and engaging even for newer or casual players for you have plenty of said orbs. I used to chrome and fuse everything up to 4L and trade for 6L. Maybe something could be improved only for 6L purposes for the fusing odds are insane - like D2 rune or D4 unique drop rates.

Would you have complaints if the odds of getting a 6L were as high or at least comparable to those of getting a 4L?