POE 2 speed slowed down. Yay or Nay ?
" Still refuse to refute the point, just go back to ad-hominem like him, until you can actually retort the point all you are doing is name calling. | |
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Refuting the (completely irrelevant and utterly useless) point: speed of play is not and never has been a bottleneck for botters. A botter will run as many clients as they have the hardware to run; slowing the game down does not somehow allow them more or less overhead to run the client with.
Point is also completely irrelevant and utterly useless because only yappy Redditors and yaybos blame everything wrong with Path of Exile on bots. have played for years, never once ran into the thronging legion of issues everybody keeps pervasively blaming on bots. If the bot networks are what drives currency exchange prices, oh well. Nobody ever gets divine drops anyways, and if the only market you engage in is the chaos market because you're not a flipper spending all your time in TFT and on the trade site sniping people, who cares what the exchange of chaos to divines is. Regardless of whatever, botting or not-botting has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on speed of play. Try again. | |
" Nice try at straw-manning, the point you need to refute is how the meta of the game revolves around speed, and how that speed affects your gameplay, it is your positive assertion that the game is balanced around speed, so what aspect of the game is balanced around speed that you are incapable of swapping other stats with, you trying to readjust the argument isn't refuting it, it's simply called distraction, a child's game. I wont even entertain the attempt at a strawman, if you cannot refute the point don't bother submitting an argument. Also good job at fulfilling the bottom 3 steps of the what makes the worst arguments.  Here I'll even help you: 1) define meta here: 2) posit how meta is affected by speed here: 3) posit your potential solution here: Last edited by valarias on Jul 13, 2023, 7:57:23 PM
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Moving the goalposts. You said:
"...please refute the argument that botters will simply not run more clients and devalue your chaos orbs all the same while also punishing actually good players at the top end who want a different playstyle." I talked about botters, since that was your alleged concern - keeping the game unplayably fast for the vast majority of its playerbase somehow keeps botters from botting at maximum efficiency. Refutation: it does not. Speed of play has nothing to do with bot operation. You claimed straw-manning and stated the real argument is that I claimed the game was built/designed to overemphasize speed of clear while making some confusing not-point about swapping stats for whatever reason. Do you still think I'm talking about the Movement Speed modifier? I already stated that particular stat is of no importance to anyone holding the discussion. "Speed", in this instance, refers to builds able to clear content at a pace of play that most normal players cannot ever obtain or keep up with. The builds that flicker through a map using teleport-like movement skills so fast they don't even animate anymore, murdering everything in a three-screen radius in a tenth of a second at the click of a single button and erasing juiced Uber pinnacle bosses so quickly those bosses cannot complete a single attack animation if they do not have invulnerability phases. This is unsustainable. The game gets faster with each release, and it has reached a pace of play at the top end that is ludicrously unreasonable and which causes anyone not within a certain percentage of that speed to fall out of the market and be left unable to participate in a league. Every once in a while, Grinding Gear needs to pump the brakes. Those patches are going to be enormously unpopular with turbosweats who won't be able to farm currency at fifteen thousand times the rate of a normal player anymore and abuse the market with an army of flipping mules, but they are necessary for the long-term health of the game. To say nothing of aforementioned content that you are soft-locked out of if you do not have strongly above-average clearspeed. Again, Delirium is one of the most profitable pieces of endgame 'Extra' content out there and it is completely inaccessible to anyone that is not moving and clearing several times faster than the average natural-pace player. Heist is extremely punishing to slow builds, Breach is null-value for builds that can't race from one edge of the breach to the other in a second, Incursion physically cannot be done by builds without above-average clearspeed... Your turn. Refute The Point that the game is unfairly dominated by Religion of Zoom turbosweats whose screaming-minority voice continues to drive Grinding Gear into developing content that is unplayable to people running the game at a natural pace so they can continue to corner the market on everything and keep regular players from participating in their leagues. Last edited by 1453R on Jul 13, 2023, 8:05:40 PM
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" Good try at a half quote, quote the whole thing, unless we are operating under the presumption of the argument as I have laid it out, that you are indeed considering meta as the ability to quickly generate currency, which again as you said bots are going to bot no matter what, the difference being that high-end players can also scale their loot so the result isn't that bot's get better but that players get worse, so what's your point? you want to hamper end-game players because??? because they are faster than you? Delirium while aided by movement speed early on is balanced by voidstoneing linear maps like strand, so that's not really a good point, and if you want to do cemetery and get level 10 deli on cemetery, then guess what, you need to optimize to the max, alternatively if you prefer a slow style you can spec defense and play blighted or heists. So because you can't do the absolute end-end-end game of one aspect of content because you refuse to min-max we should lower the min-max? So by that logic should we also just get rid of bossing builds and mapping builds? so that one size fits all? should we just remove prefixes and suffixes too since those are hard to roll good? Also here is a graph that refutes your point about the game being unplayable or that the meta is dominated by a minority and that it is getting worse, https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All Last edited by valarias on Jul 13, 2023, 10:25:11 PM
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Why do you think Steam user numbers mean anything to this "debate"?
Look, this whole mess is off scope for the thread anyways. Your opinion that anyone who can't create a five-mirror build by the end of week one of a league is a pointless loser who doesn't deserve to play the game is honestly irrelevant. The point of the thread, before you started slinging accusations, is that the buttery-smooth and engaging to watch trailers for Aggorat and Ngamakanui looked more fun than Boomer Zoomer Cookie Clicker nonsense, and people wanted to know what folks' opinion was on the possibility of path of Exile 2 being less about teleporting instant map clears and more about engaging with the game's content. You believe Path of Exile is a better game when a tenth of a percent of its players can scale to the point of being able to freely ignore everything the game does and forty percent of the game's overall content is developed exclusively and solely for that tenth of a percent of the playerbase, with everyone else left out in the cold fighting over scraps. I and many others believe that Uber Pinnacle content is there for turbosweats to turbosweat over, and the entire rest of the game doesn't also need to be catered specifically and solely to them. You can continue being wrong. Most people won't hold it against you. | |
" Sample size, the largest player contingent is on steam, therefore measuring the player numbers is quite valuable. Especially when it's not my argument that players can't play, ITS YOUR ARGUMENT THAT YOU NEED THE BEST META BUILD IN 5 DAYS OF LEAGUE. Yah it's off-scope, it's offscope why again? Right, because the data doesn't agree with you, nor do you have an argument that treads water. So you'll go back to name calling, and I'll go back to dismissing you. You are right about one thing though "You believe Path of Exile is a better game when a tenth of a percent of its players can scale to the point of being able to freely ignore everything the game does and forty percent of the game's overall content is developed exclusively and solely for that tenth of a percent of the playerbase" Yes I do believe putting in the time and effort should be rewarded, and if you take that reward away you simply remove and aspect of the game that doesn't need to be removed to cater to a minority of casual players who think they should be the best when they do nothing to earn it. Last edited by valarias on Jul 14, 2023, 10:18:56 AM
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Zooming meta is def a thing, and dude has a point that tons of content cathers heavily maxing clear speed
But... poe is pretty much a single-player game, on competitive games, we have to follow the meta because you are actively punished with massive loss streaks and barred from ladder progression if you dont(tho wether not ranking up is actually bad is debatable by itself), but if you dont follow the meta on poe, you are punished... how exactly? Not following meta on poe simply translates to taking more time to reach end content and completing builds. Taking too long to reach the content you like is a legit negative, but its not terrible, unless the content you are talking about is ubers, reaching end content on poe dont take a terrible amount of grind. Build completion delay is just like not climbing ladder: it might actually be a disgised blessing if you think about it, the point people have mirror tier stuff also brings the point behind playing the game dies, you reached the peak of what the game has to offer, so nowhere else to go but for another game Also, you dont NEED absolute completion to enjoy the content that is timed: The mentioned delirium can be profitable even if you cant clear the map before the fog vanish, the difference between clearing a full strand with complete alva and multiple breaches and abyss along the way isnt terribly different than if you just clear a bit more than half of the map, in fact, the diff is in the realm rng can make a full clear less rewarding than a 3/5 clear... The reward for clearing just half a map is not lower to the point the content is not worth the sextants, same for breach(esp after they reworked so most of splinters comes on "chests", so its not even a legit kill race anymore) breachlords demand clear speed, but its a very specific instance inside specific content(and you dont really need to complete the breach if youre just looking for the exp like most people on a breachstone is...). Incursion barely even qualify as "time atk" content, maybe it was before we had atlas tree, but with the extra time passive, well if you cant kill the arquitect before time runs out even with passive, youre doing something wrong, same deal for abyss really, i find the fissure closing is only a factor if a yellow that counters my build pops or if i die I mean, sure... those contents demand SOME clear speed, but its forgiving enough that the content is acessible and profitable even if you are not destroying it, its okay to gate out characters that take whole minutes to kill red mobs and you dont need super consistent 20+ splinters per instance for the content pay for itself. Its not efficient? Sure isnt, and it will take time to get to certain levels of wealth, but then... that brings us back to what are you really losing for playing non-meta, dosnt it? Why the obsession to get to top tier gear asap? Are you in a hurry to be done with this game and be free to move to the next one? | |
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Beh.
It mostly just feels like the entire game is actively and deliberately slanted against people who don't play it at absolute warp speed. Not even just popping packs with one skill usage - that single skill usage has to go off and complete in a tenth of a second, and you have to be able to transition between packs in a quarter of a second, and if you can't do any of that then it's just bloody impossible to generate enough currency to do anything worthwhile unless you get unreasonably lucky. I maintain that nobody likes playing that fast. You cannot SEE ANYTHING. You have no idea what's happening; you're just trusting your overgeared build to take care of whatever problems pop up while you click more-or-less randomly on the screen reacting to flashes of shit that's already dead. And yet roughly half of the game content is fundamentally designed for that level of utterly immersion-breaking I AM SPEED zoom. If you can't maintain that speed you don't get to make currency, but it takes hundreds of divines to get to that level of speed. It's a constant self-perpetuating cycle of fuck you to anyone who wants to play the game instead of utilizing a small army of bizarre, nonintuitive hyper-speedrunner tricks to somehow apparate currency out of thin air to pay for the sort of character speed that makes the game unfun to play, watch, or interact with. And once they get there? That's it. League over. I've seen players on this board complaining "league's dead, when's the next one?" less than a week after league start. And because those content locusts have figured out some sort of Secret Jutsu to generating a thousand divines in a week, Grinding Gear keeps trying to match them and increase the speed of content in ways that hinder and shut out anyone who doesn't know The Secrets. Gear gets more expensive every goddamn league, it gets harder and harder to assemble anything worthwhile, and if you don't finish whatever you're doing in a league within a week of league start nobody will talk to you, buy your shit, or sell you their shit anymore. It's maddening. Uber bosses are the "your time and effort should be rewarded" content. Guys like Valarias piss me off to the nines because they're perpetuating this idea that your time and effort should only be rewarded if you're the the top percent of the top percent and able to craft a fifty-mirror build within three days of league start. Everybody else's time and effort, the hours that normal ordinary players who don't juice up on Monster and cocaine to grind a hundred hours out of the two and a half days of League Start Weekend? Those are completely valueless and nobody should get anything out of them. If you're not the sweatiest of turbosweats you don't deserve to play Path of Exile at all and should just uninstall, as he's been demanding I do all thread. Which is absolutely fucking stupid because the standards are unbelievably high. I've beaten every Shaper and Elder guardian and every Elderslayer, I've beaten the Shaper and the red-map Elder back when that was a thing, I've beaten the Searing Exarch and the Eater of Worlds, I've come within a shaved asshair of beating Uber Elder. I've never beat Sirus, but that's primarily because it was so hard to GET to Sirus I only ever got to fight him once. According to The Steam Numbers Valarias is so keen on beating me over the head with I'm easily top five percent of the overall Path of Exile playerbase, probably higher, and yet I cannot get anywhere in most leagues unless I get lucky and get hard currency drops and anyone who plays the way I do is considered an absolute fucking manure tier garbo shitlord who should just uninstall the game and leave it to the real Path of Exile players. Steam numbers: less than three percent of the playerbase has the Searing Exarch and Eater of Worlds achievements, which people like Valarias claim are absolutely braindead pointless "any idiot can do this with three chaos and a three-link" benchmarks. These people are demanding that over ninety-seven percent of the game immediately stop playing forever because we're not as fast as they are, and I cannot stand it. So I reiterate: Bleh. | |
" I will just repeat the central point of my post: Why do you even care? ...honestly, why do you even care that someone can clear the game on 2 days? Triumph of other people bothers you? If youre ones that gets bugged for it, youre gonna suffer, the real world is full of scumbags that suceeded in life so hard and hard workers that live in shit, it can almost be taken as proof that the almighty dont exist(or at least is not benevolent) Yeah, i know i suck at fighting games and im stuck at mid ranks, i can look at tourneys and marvel at the stuff they pull and the level of mindgames going on, i will never achieve that level, but... so what? Having that grandmaster/S1/warlord title is not gonna impact my fun, i like to turn off the brain when i play fighting games, thus the higher ranks are closed to me and i would need to take a style that i dont find fun to go further So i simply dont. Why not? Its a fking videogame, if you are at that point where you have winning over enjoying, youre doing it wrong. Some people just wants to win, sure, but let these people play in formulaic fashion along their meta fellows on higher ranks, they enjoy their thing and i enjoy mine Like... freaking GGG itself embraces that mindset: Chris himself came and gave word of god that he dont want to make GGG an AAA company if he has to turn into a hellhole company to work for that constantly makes shit moves(like more than one example). He basically said "yeah, i dont care about how well the competition is doing, im not gonna pursue money if it comes with the price that the company would turn into something i dont enjoy", real-life equivalent of "i dont care how streamers are doing, im gonna play the game my way and progress at my pace" You wanna aim for the top spot? If thats your thing, by all means, go for it, but if you dont wanna play that way, why you even care? The tryhards of poe that adopts a playstyle they hate because the cool guys are doing it really should take the example set by the developers of the game they play |
