state of slams (hit slow and hard) - it is sadly rubbish

I miss Ritual league for this very reason. They were very OP in the early game, I don't think one shotting bosses with starting gear was the expectation. But in the endgame that free power came back down a ton but was still very strong.

I played slams the past two leagues and didn't use fist of war and they were better to play sadly.

-Fist of War should get mastery boosts so investing into Warcry clusters gives you slam power. A couple of spell supports get mastery boosts so Fist of War would be a nice touch there as well.

-The wheels themselves need some power put back into them, they took interesting nodes and put them in the masteries instead which is silly.

-There needs to be more itemization for Exerted Attacks

-100% Leap Slam shouldn't exert an attack unless you pick a mastery to do so.

-Yes the warcry buffs themselves and buff effect, even the idea of power needs work... but I got nothing for this atm

Ultimately I agree with you Sid... but honestly, I'm just tired of reading threads, responding, making threads. I just want to see them do something. I feel like PoE 2 might make or break me because they aren't 3 guys in a garage anymore and I don't feel like waiting years for a small melee update that makes no sense.

The core of this game is great honestly, melee just needs some work.. not unplayable but not great either.

"

wizardlulz wrote:

yeah this is when i stop arguing and vote with my wallet.

if they removed melee completely i don't think anyone would notice at this point


edit: DOTA 2 not every hero is viable for every situation. but they are ALL viable for certain situations and timings. they have been polished for those specific cases. what works in casual will not work in professional vice versa

what works in USA does not entirely work against Chinese dota styles. they are all unique and most of the time you will see different meta's in different regions which is a beautiful thing to see.

in PoE yes its a different genre, has dead gems . outclassed and out purposed with better more modern gems. its like releasing new heroes without tuning the old ones to compete with them. poe is not polishing old gems or balancing the game to make melee gems work and saying ( wait for poe 2 ) i guess my wallet will wait till then too .

its like telling someone to be content playing Board games like Battleships, Monopoly, Candyland while everyone else plays games on Steam, Blizzard, etc

I also stopped supporting GGG with 3.15 because i think their vision is just going to kill the game in the long run so i am in the same boat.

Removing melee (as in removing the melee tag from skills) would probably be a good idea. Considering how this game works in regards to monster damage and mob density actual melee is never going to work out. You can use pretty much any melee skill to beat the game if you know what you are doing but in the process of getting it there you basically have to turn it into something that isn't melee anymore by adding tons of melee strike range making it a pseudo Lacerate, by increasing AOE so it covers the entire screen or by using Savior reflections or Generals Cry to turn it into a pseudo minion build. The tag is honestly just a farce at this point. Remove it, leave it with just attacks and spells and be done with it. That way those idiotic "real melee" complaints will also go away, hopefully.

I also think that GGGs mentality of not balancing the game and instead just overthrowing the meta with massive build destroying nerfs every few months is complete shit and another reason to not support them. POE isn't a pvp game like Dota so balance isn't as important here but they could at least put some effort in it.

POE2 wont change a thing. there are YEARS of neglect, piles and piles of neglect all around the 'melee' side of this game

you cannot change that in one step. you can try ofc but the realistic outcome of doing something for the first time in years is a failure

but, this thread is only about SLAM PLAYSTYLE - aka hit once, hit hard. boost yourself with warcries, store the power, unleash, repeat. we had it on release when that playstyle worked very well and was a legit choice with pros and cons. sadly, GGG couldnt balance Earthshatter nor Impaler and thus had to destroy it all to the ground
note: you HAVE to use warcries, without them the entire playstyle makes no sense AT ALL. there is no discussion there.


and while i *can* understand why animations are difficult to fix (issue: attack speed == animation speed) i refuse to understand the notion that current NUMBERS on slams are ok

Fist of War is pure garbage, it is paper dps and real dps downgrade
Warcries outright lie to you about their effect

Intimidating Cry:
- double damage for two hits
- Intimidate enemies

right?

now the numbers:

- 'shout time' base is .8sec, with ~40% increased from levels it is ~.5second
- Taunt lasts 3 seconds (and i couldnt find a reliable info on if it is affected by duration modifiers, it seems it isnt)

That means that a player (with no extra investment into warcry speed/(buff duration) has 2.5seconds of Taunt to work with

Fist of War has a 1.8s cooldown (per support, you can have two but it is very unpleasant to build and play).

In real scenario - when you move - your second boosted hit WILL NOT benefit from Intimidate. I bet most people do not know this and eat the placebo pill believing it works as they think it works.

Buff effect:
similar story. Most warcries have 2 'buffs'
Rallying Cry:
- 3% mainhand damage per 5 power
- 5% more damage per ally

Buff effect directly affects the second line. The first one reads in full:
Buff grants Added Attack Damage equal to 3% of the Damage of your Main
Hand Weapon per 5 Power, up to a maximum of 20%

Buff effect cannot increase that maximum (regardless of how difficult it is to actually reach 50 power - without HEAVY investment unique gets you 20, not 50..). It is another misleading stat that looks far better than it works in reality.

Then there are rounding down of small % on small base values but oh well, thats the price of speedy int-based calculations.


It ofc sounds 'trivial' and 'what is the problem with that' or 'just invest into speed/duration/power' or use different medium cluster :)

Warcries are very weak even if we assume they work 100% of the time at 100% capacity. They are shockingly bad when you actually check the numbers. Buff duration, shout time, cooldown (for Intimidating Cry it is 8 seconds base) the values are just not there. passives around the tree - once you understand how this math works - are DELIBERATELY placed to make it impossible to fix this with one cluster. GGG might 'not care' but they nerfed slams very, very precisely and to the ground


The itemization? first, Im fed up in solving all 'base' problems with diluted mod pool that makes getting correct gear almost impossible. Second - even Echoes suggests 3 warcries. each of them values different stat the most and there are several: duration, cooldown recovery, speed, effect, exerts count. SIX stats! it is bloat hell. you cannot properly gear for that mess.

btw - WTF is the Seismic Cry now?

Glad someone is tackling this but sadly I think GGG will continue to let them languish.

Also big + for mentioning the travel skills don't exert tax I frown everytime i mouse over that mastery like oh good, I have to spend passives to remove unwanted behaviour.

Come on GGG that talent should be the other way round, if some fruit wants to make a leapslam exert build that is when you need niche entry not for everyone else to have to spec out of it.

The whole playstyle is a textbook overnerf, it was jump through hoops to do big damage now its jump through hoops to underperform. Nobody jumps through hoops unless big damage is at the end so its just dead on arrival.

I've had fun using buffed Marohi Erqui on HC but every single time I swing my mind says, if this attack doesn't kill this pack I'm dead as the swing time is so long. Using this as an example because 70 rage cancels out the speed.

Also who thought reworking earthquake was a good idea, EQ was one of the best feeling skills in the game for so many leagues then it got killed immediately by removing its helm enchant.

Again, jumping through hoops requires huge payoff EQ got a classic "GGG" rework, great skill loved by many into skill used by nearly nobody. What a fucking rework what a success.

"

sidtherat wrote:

- warcries are a trap. they wear off WAY faster than people think they do. anyone using them right now most likely gets ZERO bonus from them, because the effect is already gone. warcries at this point are actual noob trap (you need SIGNIFICANT (100%+) investment into duration to turn the base value into something workable)

Since you developed in a following post, I know what you mean by "they are a trap", however .... intimidating cry is a mandatory skill if you play slow strike skills =/
Which is super lame, it isn't an option, it is not something you can do, it is something you must use at this point.

That part of your message was a bit missleading tbh, the "double damage for two hits" stays, the "ZERO bonus" is about the rest only (the intimidate + overwhelm effect), isn't it ?

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

I've had fun using buffed Marohi Erqui on HC but every single time I swing my mind says, if this attack doesn't kill this pack I'm dead as the swing time is so long. Using this as an example because 70 rage cancels out the speed.

Riight, that is a huge downsite (as if there were not enough of them) to slow slam strike skill, there is a windup meaning ....
- you are not moving, which is pretty bad in the current state ofthe game
- you take damage (direct consequence of the previous point)
- you can be stun = your attack does not come off

and sometimes you get stun or really slowed (not quite sure in the middle of the action), and when your attack actually goes off ... fist of war does not proc ?

It happens to me quite a bit, it's really annoying and it makes one wonder one there isn't a notable somewhere, or a support gem, or a jewel, or just an innate slam skill function that makes you avoid interruptions when striking with those skills.

It makes sense that this can happen when you think about it alright, you have a slow windup, in a real fighting situation you want to strike before you get stroke, that whole thing makes sense, but it makes slow strike skills feel bad and they probably should have something to either address this or get something else somewhere.

One solution could be that the slow attack speed has a big impact after the hit more than before the hit (kind of a stun after hitting like effect), and it would make a lot of sense as heavy weapons often have a recoil effect.

I tried first Doryani's touch with pulverize and no (and almost none) attack speed investment and .... that just felt too bad, I had to drop pulvierize entirely, which is sad because it fits exactly what I want to do with the character !

You people honestly have a mistaken understanding of "slow". Slams differ from other melee skills in that you can't use Multistrike, in exchange you can use exerted attacks. From a gameplay perspective that's all there is to it.

Since Multistrike gives more attack speed slams will typically be slower than a build going for Multistrike but "slower" in this case doesn't (have to) mean "slow" as in monsters kill me before my attack finishes. If that's the case for your build we are back to git gud.

Skills using Multistrike typically have between 5 and 10 aps depending on the base speed of the gem used and the weapons. Slams will usually have 2 or 3 APS if build properly. A certain someone even said once that any slam build with less than 8 aps is unviable, it's not that extreme but you'll typically have at least some speed when build right. That is 0,5 sec attack time, at most. If you have more than that's a build issue. 0,5 sec is more than fast enough to dodge any kind of AN bullshit coming your way and to wipe trash mobs before they can even touch you and have fluid game play.

If everyone here is making builds with >1 sec attack time which aren't even stun/freeze immune and says that feels shit i'll agree but that is your choice, it's in no way or form caused by restrictions set by the playstyle or the game. Just your choice during build making probably made for selfimposed fluff reasons. If you don't like the result of it, then just don't do it?

Cop out answer Baharoth you are basically saying we are retarded for using the tools they setup, of course you can make slams fast but enjoy the anti-synergy of using fist of war and intimidating cry to buff 5aps.

Most slams have a substantial attack speed penalty, pulverise has an attack speed penalty, fist of war and warcries in general both encourage lower APS and there are multiple supports/masteries that make this worse. You are then faced with a choice of getting a stat for no other reason than "to make my build feel playable" it doesn't even give you a numerical bonus.

GGG created that players just use what they are given. The numbers are no longer strong enough to support it you used to be able to make them faster and just trade out some damage because they had enough. No longer the case.

The point is a "good" build just accepts that slams are shit and plays them like everything else that is tantamount to the advice you are giving here and its true, almost every slam build is better if you drop fist of war and intimidating cry and just scale like every other phys skill.

But that isn't slam anymore the threads about state of slams and their state isn't good, all builds should be built assuming 3aps even 2 is too slow and their numbers should be made appropriate for around that value.

Their initial attempt to make slams a thing actually worked, its too many nerfs afterwards that have gotten them to the state they are in now "slow" is a relative term and the game is unplayable below a certain value, GGG need to accept that when balancing.

i think it is a case of reading comprehension (or my inability to use English properly)

so, slowly, point by point:

- SLAM PLAYSTYLE is an archetype devised and promoted by GGG. all the tools i tested were used for their INTENDED purpose.
- character in question.. doesnt matter. you can implement any changes to it - as long as you stick to the general outline - the results remain the same.
- SLAM PLAYSTYLE is no the same as 'using slam skill'. GGG clearly described the intent behind this archetype. I tried to follow it closely (not using Echoes was the only exception). i even put this:

"

* - please do not say 'slams are fine, people are successfully playing 105rage Sunder' or whatever. it is about SLAM PLAYSTYLE, not slam skills.

into my initial post.

I know i can make a successful (albeit still garbage vs ubers) Sunder character with 2 Psychotic axes, 105 rage and stuff. I know, I really know. Sunder has good numbers, good mechanic. But in such build 'slam' tag is just an empty phrase.

This experiment actually for the first time opened my eyes on JUST HOW BAD warcries are in real life use. The math (upper limit is 50 power, but vs bosses you can get max ~24 power WITH INVESTMENT) is just shocking, the uptime is very, very questionable (imo - Increased Duration Support is MANDATORY with Warcries) with most effects wearing off MUCH faster than you can use up your exerts. it is just a damn noob trap

The math behind Fist of War is much easier to see, so no big surprise - it sucks. it simply sucks. I was actually baffled to see its cooldown does not scale with anything. It is just bad.


I did not touch nor wanted to dillute this thread with: melee in general, slam SKILLS, itemization for slams (warcry related stats are on influenced WEAPONS ffs.. like.. are GGG for real?) and i would like it to stay this way


btw. that experimental garbo char has no problem in t16 altars/delve300, died twice between 89 and 93. blame GGG on making slam playstyle requiring so many weird and suboptimal choices


btw2. anyone knows what is the purpose of Seismic Cry? anyone?

@Draegnarrr No, i am saying make proper builds. There is no need to make 1 aps slam builds and it's obviously not a good choice it's just that you, for got knows what reason, decided that when i use slams i have to play slowmotion which is just nonsense from my perspective, sorry.

You say you are just using the tools GGG gave you, but there are good and bad tools you know? And even with good tools the way how you use them will matter a lot in your success rate. Pulverize, Fist of War, warcries, even slow weapons all of them have their uses and can be made work IF you build for it. But that doesn't mean that you can just mindlessly stack all of them into one build along with other things that have similar downsides, make no efforts whatsoever to compensate for those downsides and then expect to win. If you make a glass build with 1 aps that isn't stun or freeze immune then yeah you will struggle but who in his right mind would think that this is a proper build in the first place? It's like you are actively trying to fail.

And no, making a good build is not equal to not make a slam build, at least not in my perspective. You can make good slam builds that have literally none of the issues you people are discussing here. Slam builds that can do red maps, deli maps, simulacrums, pinnacle and heck even most uber bosses. I know because i have 2 of those. A build with 3 warcries, significant investment in warcry nodes and a 2 hander using a slam skill is still a slam build at least as far as POE is concerned, even if it has 2 or 3 aps. If you add a selfmade condition of "must not have more than 1 aps" on top of that then that's entirely on you.

Yes, they nerfed seismic cry and yes the way they did it was idiotic and yes it did lose quite some damage. But do you remember how slams were dominating every single gauntlet because they had such a good damage potential even for HC SSF norms? They were top notch in terms of damage potential, top notch - quite some damage doesn't result in trash. You still get 125 more damage from two gem slots at the price of not using multistrike that's like 3 full damage support gems. There is still plenty of damage to be had here at bascially no downside aside from the extra button press, you just have to do it properly.

Throwing all attack speed out of the window, stacking less attack speed modifiers instead, scaling the completely irrelevant warcry buff effect instead of useful stats, not using the important warcry nodes, making bad weapon choices, fucking up your ascendancy points like nobodies business, i mean do you really think a build who does all of that and more should still be playable?

@Armchair developer: Again [Removed by Support], the slam builds i am talking about satisfy all the requirements you lined out in your initial post.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!! They just do it properly. Scaling heavily with attackspeed and having no attackspeed are 2 extremes with lot's of room in between. [Removed by Support] you seem to think that only the 2 extremes exist, well that's a wrong assumption from the get go.

i do not see your 'great' slammer POB but last you posted your chars around here you still believed explody chest should be supported with Brutality Support so I do not know man.. maybe im just sceptical here

btw - personal insults are not classy