Thank you all for helping keep this ridiculous problem of black bars at the top of the forum.
1 year, 294 days
Fix it, GGG
0 years, 2 days since my question how we went from "Take notes everyone - this is how you actually make good arguments." to "There are no defensible arguments in favor of black bars, and none have been offered in 1 year, 291 days."
Spoiler
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ArtCrusade wrote:
How have we gone from "Take notes everyone - this is how you actually make good arguments."
Spoiler
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tackle70 wrote:
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Ulsarek wrote:
How this is still up for debate is beyond me. GGG put a limit in place because the game was never designed for such resolutions and actively broke the game. Just because it wasn't apparent to the average user doesn't mean those problems didn't exist.
Just from the top of my head, to name a few:
• You could see entities spawning in at the edge of your screen and position or navigate accordingly
• More often than not said entities weren't even properly loading in, t-posing wasn't uncommon
• As stated by GGG themselves, such resolutions caused unintended behaviour and fucked with their server load
• Major advantage, you could essentially offscreen packs and bosses with little effort
• Bosses don't have infinite enmity range, some could be offscreened without them even moving towards the player
• You couldn't click on the map or loot items beyond a certain area on your screen
There was even a popular case 4 years ago during the China race where the streamer Ventrua used a very wide resolution to offscreen Baran with Essence Drain during said race. He pretty much sat at the edge of the arena and slowly killed the boss without the boss even moving. This could be applied to many bosses and thus indeed is beyond broken and a unfair advantage. (https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/i7qq7n/ventrua_exploiting_ultrawide_in_china_race/)
32:9 and beyond working in the first place was an oversight. GGG most likely never thought of it and once they started to identify problems a solution was applied.
One could argue black bars are a bad solution but then again it isn't uncommon in the industry and much easier to implement than fixing whatever else gets broken by these ridiculous resolutions. Elden Ring also doesn't allow widescreen for these reasons. GGG did the right thing here.
Besides widescreen still works, 21:9 is a significant upgrade over 16:9 but doesn't break anything.
Take notes everyone - this is how you actually make good arguments.
I don't agree, as I've argued throughout this thread, that these points validate the decision to "solve" the problem by implementing black bars in the main game. I agree that 32:9 (and, I would argue, even 21:9) should be banned from races and PvP modes, but black bars are the laziest and most clumsy possible "fix" for the main game.
For one thing, it's an overstatement to say 32:9 broke the game. Every instance you mention of 32:9 "breaking" something in the regular noncompetitive modes could have been solved by bug fixes or fog of war, either of which would be a far better solution.
I also would argue that GGG's "my servers are melting" reasoning is complete nonsense and just them grasping at straws to justify a lazy design choice. This issue affects something on the order of 0.5% of their players. That's just not significant enough to meaningfully affect their overall server load. Also, it is not right for a company to pass problems on their backend off to their paying customers. Players pay GGG so they can support their staff and all their technical backend. Slapping black bars on player screens to save 1% server load is not acceptable, particularly for a company their size.
GGG did the lazy thing here, not the right thing. Bug fixes and/or possibly a fog of war or FoV system would be GGG doing the right thing.
To what I can only call gaslighting right here:
Spoiler
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tackle70 wrote:
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Echothesis wrote:
So far haven't seen an argument against what I said 2 pages ago, about why the rest of black bars solution working rather poorly and should either be fixed or removed.
There are no defensible arguments in favor of black bars, and none have been offered in 1 year, 291 days.
Fix it.
Actually downright toxic.
The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
Last edited by ArtCrusade#4438 on Jun 7, 2024, 1:33:11 PM
The only fix is to replace your bad choice monitor with one that comes with a proper and supported aspect ratio.
Other than that after almost 2 years and multiple other games without proper support for your work space monitor you should be used to black bars by now :)
Flames and madness. I'm so glad I didn't miss the fun.
Thank you all for helping keep this ridiculous problem of black bars at the top of the forum.
1 year, 294 days
Fix it, GGG
How this is still up for debate is beyond me. GGG put a limit in place because the game was never designed for such resolutions and actively broke the game. Just because it wasn't apparent to the average user doesn't mean those problems didn't exist.
Just from the top of my head, to name a few:
• You could see entities spawning in at the edge of your screen and position or navigate accordingly
• More often than not said entities weren't even properly loading in, t-posing wasn't uncommon
• As stated by GGG themselves, such resolutions caused unintended behaviour and fucked with their server load
• Major advantage, you could essentially offscreen packs and bosses with little effort
• Bosses don't have infinite enmity range, some could be offscreened without them even moving towards the player
• You couldn't click on the map or loot items beyond a certain area on your screen
There was even a popular case 4 years ago during the China race where the streamer Ventrua used a very wide resolution to offscreen Baran with Essence Drain during said race. He pretty much sat at the edge of the arena and slowly killed the boss without the boss even moving. This could be applied to many bosses and thus indeed is beyond broken and a unfair advantage. (https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/i7qq7n/ventrua_exploiting_ultrawide_in_china_race/)
32:9 and beyond working in the first place was an oversight. GGG most likely never thought of it and once they started to identify problems a solution was applied.
One could argue black bars are a bad solution but then again it isn't uncommon in the industry and much easier to implement than fixing whatever else gets broken by these ridiculous resolutions. Elden Ring also doesn't allow widescreen for these reasons. GGG did the right thing here.
Besides widescreen still works, 21:9 is a significant upgrade over 16:9 but doesn't break anything.
I mean.....if you would actually read any of my posts you would clearly find that the entire point I'm making is that there IS no argument to be made! We already have the answer! That is what I have written in every single comment.
I'm not going to offer my own argument because i don't have an argument: GGG told us why they removed the support. And then they removed it.
Okay, I got that point. Guess if we sit and want for nothing, good things are bound to happen on their own. Eventually.
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jsuslak313 wrote:
Frankly....you also don't have an argument. NO proven knowledge on the subject, NO believable background and expertise, and a complete and total disregard for information provided by the people who actually DID the programming in the game. "Trust me bro" gets you absolutely nowhere.
You know what the actual correct response is to this entire thread? The REAL correct response? When GGG said and I quote "We are looking at being able to increase this in the future.", the correct response is "Okay, I'll look forward to that day!". Not go on an endless crusade against nothing, providing what could loosely be described as "feedback", when it is in fact a veiled attempt at trying to prove to no one that a "real" programmer would have fixed this by now and/or better.
You mean one needs to present you their credentials before you give any thought to what they say?:) It would be rather unethical to come to one project's forum with tales of another project, and for once I would understand moderators here deleting such attempts.
And yes, GGG are more than capable of fixing bars properly if they wanted to. I've always had respect for technical side of PoE, both backend and 3D engine (it did went downhill in 3.23, but seems to be mostly fixed by now).
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jsuslak313 wrote:
I choose to trust the makers of the game when they say there was a functional problem with the game THEY created and hold all the code for, with a team specifically designed to work on these things. I'm not going to offer an inexperienced, disconnected, and frankly insulting opinion on how to fix a problem I know nothing about because "black bars". Or worse yet, spend 2 years offering nothing and bringing toxicity to everyone else because "black bars". And actually...even now...there hasn't even been any HOW TO feedback provided! Just a bunch of complaining.
Heck, just this endless repetition of the response "Explain why black bars are great!" and the labeling of the "black bar crew" is telling in itself: that was never the argument being made. Not by any response. And yet that is the response continually being given no matter what was actually written.
So we quibble about linguistics? Well at least one side is actually accurately quoting the other. While the other simply makes things up.
Ok, feel free to trust them, no argument here. After all GGG never misled players intentionally in their statements, right? :kapp:
You mean one needs to present you their credentials before you give any thought to what they say?:) It would be rather unethical to come to one project's forum with tales of another project, and for once I would understand moderators here deleting such attempts.
No, but if you keep saying "I also am an ARPG developer" it comes off as a call to authority. You are saying it in an attempt to add weight to your words, which, since you don't substantiate the claim, it doesn't.
The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
Just from the top of my head, to name a few:
• You could see entities spawning in at the edge of your screen and position or navigate accordingly
• More often than not said entities weren't even properly loading in, t-posing wasn't uncommon
• As stated by GGG themselves, such resolutions caused unintended behaviour and fucked with their server load
• Major advantage, you could essentially offscreen packs and bosses with little effort
• Bosses don't have infinite enmity range, some could be offscreened without them even moving towards the player
• You couldn't click on the map or loot items beyond a certain area on your screen
TLDR: those are viable obstacles, but they are only obstacles by indie project standards, not for what PoE aspires to be.
1) To what end? Boss arenas are too small except Sirus and his last stage beam. On maps mobs cannot harm you even at normal screen edges unless you blindly walk into projectiles. You don't need to see in order to keep running in circles.
2) Okay, let players choose what they want to see more? All those hours in poe and I cannot remember how common mobs look, never mind their poses and animations. They are perceived more like homogeneous mass.
3) Possibility, but this is what should have been fixed by tuning replication properly.
4) How many times must I remind that everyone and their dog offscreens packs without looking at screen? This is normal gameplay :)
5) Only Sirus, other arenas too small for this. And you still have to walk towards him to advance phases.
6) Effective cast range should be baked into skill, not be a free targeting anywhere you can see. If you click too far, range should be truncated like totem placement does.
You mean one needs to present you their credentials before you give any thought to what they say?:) It would be rather unethical to come to one project's forum with tales of another project, and for once I would understand moderators here deleting such attempts.
No, but if you keep saying "I also am an ARPG developer" it comes off as a call to authority. You are saying it in an attempt to add weight to your words, which, since you don't substantiate the claim, it doesn't.
I said it only after specifically being called out about this, never on my own. If you can find single post here with me bragging, will delete it immediately.
You mean one needs to present you their credentials before you give any thought to what they say?:) It would be rather unethical to come to one project's forum with tales of another project, and for once I would understand moderators here deleting such attempts.
No, but if you keep saying "I also am an ARPG developer" it comes off as a call to authority. You are saying it in an attempt to add weight to your words, which, since you don't substantiate the claim, it doesn't.
I said it only after specifically being called out about this, never on my own. If you can find single post here with me bragging, will delete it immediately.
And his point remains. If i said i was an amateur ARPG player trying to give opinions on how to fix Uber Maven giving wildly speculative and unverifiable answers, none would take me seriously either.
That's how you sound right now, no credibility, just baseless opinion.
And btw, you can easily not see where Maven is teleporting, another point you're flat out wrong about.
Ruthless should be [Removed by Support].
Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro#4713 on Jun 7, 2024, 2:23:33 PM
You mean one needs to present you their credentials before you give any thought to what they say?:) It would be rather unethical to come to one project's forum with tales of another project, and for once I would understand moderators here deleting such attempts.
No, but if you keep saying "I also am an ARPG developer" it comes off as a call to authority. You are saying it in an attempt to add weight to your words, which, since you don't substantiate the claim, it doesn't.
I said it only after specifically being called out about this, never on my own. If you can find single post here with me bragging, will delete it immediately.
Now don't go putting words in my mouth I didn't say. I didn't say you're bragging, I pointed out the unsubstantiated call to authority.
But since you're asking, I remember you saying the line when you were arguing in favor of PTR in the Offline PoE thread. I am beginning to see a pattern, you know?
Anyway, that's all I had to say on that matter and if that wasn't your intention, you now have a 2nd hand impression how it comes off to others
The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
Last edited by ArtCrusade#4438 on Jun 7, 2024, 2:55:19 PM
And his point remains. If i said i was an amateur ARPG player trying to give opinions on how to fix Uber Maven giving wildly speculative and unverifiable answers, none would take me seriously either.
That's how you sound right now, no credibility, just baseless opinion.
And btw, you can easily not see where Maven is teleporting, another point you're flat out wrong about.
My point also remains, you chose to drag this line further, instead of your 6 points about black bars from previous post which I responded to. You can consider me a 6-year child, it still won't change written arguments actually referring to the black bars.
Moreover, even if we abide by your logic, how should one behave on this forum? Will he/she be "taken seriously" without "calling on authority"?
Because right now it seems to work as follows: one states his opinion, others say "who are you to speak about such terribly complex things". If one says something about himself, others say "unsubstantiated call to authority we are not taking you seriously".
You won't like to hear this, but you're merely seeking anything at all to shut me out, which can also be called "no credibility". I could bring this kind of attitude to anything you say in other threads and start pressing on "GGG knows better, suck it up and btw forum may be closed, none here is competent enough to disagree with GGG":)
Finally, about Maven, I did non-uber version a lot of times just for eye candy battle (not for loot ofc), and seeing where she is was the least of my problems even though I had melee range character.
