Less than 10,000 people play single player ARPG's. 1.4 million people just tested Lost Ark

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DalaiLama wrote:

Not impossible.

Diminishing Returns.

Doesnt work with fuckton of ways to scale damage. You would have to put hard caps on everything and thats not gonna happen.

- " Not enough funds or dimishing returns " & if they don't have enough funds. The reason would be that they are missing 1 mill Lost Ark players, 20k Dragons Nest players, & 6 million Diablo Immortal players out of the 10 mill who prob have pc's. For the ARPG genre. How is 1 to 30 million unactive mmorpg players; equated to diminished returns? When compared to a 10k single player audience. The single player audience would be the diminished return if anyone is. Just depends on the marketing teams approach.


Then 400k New World players, 200k to 800k retired classic wow players, millions who quit retail wow. 200k black desert quitters. If viewing the ratio of people who 100% don't play final fantasy & don't play gw2. Ratio wise there's nothing else. Please don't mention some non popular mmorpg. These funds you speak of, are from player numbers right? So this topic addresses player numbers for the pc market. & I already stated that POE is better than all the other mmorpg's right now if I have to speak positively of poe. Poe may be better for the next 2 years or more, who knows. Yet it's not tech a mmorpg, yet is a multiplayer rpg.


- Path of Exile players are way too " sure " of knowing how much funds POE has. Most of you who mention funds, have no idea how much they are making. Blizzard made many millions & yet never fixed simple main features like balancing Alterac Valley.

- The Transition from multiplayer to mmo isn't revolutionary. Some of you act like it's a jump from single player to multiplayer.

- It's literally just a few endgame story zones that aren't dead ends. A server town that's the size of a royal event pvp feature that equals 100 people. Some new party active skills with combo rotation equals like 10 new gems. 4 guild verse guild pvp castle areas like IRO WOE. A rp tavern next to lioneye with a lore expert reward ui page npc.

Then retire hideouts to outside guild hangout flag pole fields next to active towns, like the hangout field south a IRO Prontera. A extra town portal so the town has 2 portals for guilds to be show outside rather hidden at hideouts. Some endgame zones their adding to poe 2 anyways, now have better strategy slower fought world bosses for those story zones. Then keep maps for lvl 60 to 100. Tho lvl 100 to the new 120 is open party zones. I'd personally want new story zones for 60 to 100 too.

Are they not developing new zones eventually, is it all maps only? Obviously the game is able to handle story zones. So new story zones that don't lead to dead ends & allow for party features that Impress Lazy Peon or Asmongold's Chat, being treated like " tough to implement ". It's literally what you already have. It's not even a revolutionary engine statement, it's simple extensions to their already going design. Extended features.

Not to mention ZOOMERS are probably tougher for the engine to handle, than any slower more strategy based party rotation with healer gems is gonna do to the server. Zoomers are literally bricking the server the aoe spam, at rapid pace. First of all that's not even RPG tactic gameplay, that's straight racer defeats trash mobs gameplay. & 2nd yes zoomers are worst for server stability than probably 100 people standing around a town talking about their builds or other stuff, without having to use a chat window or forum.

- Story endgame party zones with battle royal sized towns. They already have both. or had. Pop zone wise.

- All these people who mention " scaling " or how tough it is to scale for pvp or scale for mmo. Well they are usually fans of min max 1 skill & I'm not a fan of that trend. Don't give a damn if you boosted 1 skill to the point where you believe the devs now have a problem balancing that skill for pvp or party features. Well forget your 1 skill passive boost then, because party features & pvp guild kingdoms are wayyy better features than your 1 skill boost suggestion. You want to 1 hit bosses per 1 skill boosted, some expert of gameplay here ladies & gentemen, genius, >.>, tough to " scale ". Boo hoo.

Scaling 1 hit builds to pvp or mmo standards would probably result with bosses 1 hitting people less as the bosses are 1 skill boosters too. So delete all the 1 hit skill boosters. Besides them; have pvp combo slingshots with new ailments & dodge roll gems & you have a better game.

- Offline POE? I'm pretty sure Lost Epoch & Grim Dawn or some other arpg single player title, isn't all that diff from poe. Also if you wanted to play single player you may as well play Standard & not play Leagues.


- THAT GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU HIPPOCRITS. If you didn't want to play a game that leaned more multiplayer for POE; you WOULD go play Standard. The majority play Leagues. For the multiplayer aspects of relating.

Or else they'd play the ghost town that is Standard & most do not. Some will have excuses " no I play to try the league early " and whatever lame reason. Most don't tho, from day 1 they want other lvl 1's for the journey. They pan their friends list with glee to see others that are low lvl too. For the start of a league. It's a MULTIPLAYER fresh start.

I would know! I played retail WoW for 8 years from 2004 to 2012 & most of the time I never made a max lvl. I made so many alts on all of Blizzards fresh servers. Like 40 chars below lvl 40 over time. I stopped playing after BC.
The moral of the story is: I didn't refresh servers like leagues, just to get a fresh start solo. I refreshed bekuz I liked seeing thousands of low lvl people starting again. & that pre lvl 30 WoW is best WoW, or was at the time.

& ye sure some people have diff reasons for trying a league, over standard, rather than multiplayer reasons. Tho still, for most. That's the #1 reason or else ye, they should have no problem with Standard. & Most won't quit leagues for standard. So ye Leagues do lean toward multiplayer relating over this lone rogue gameplay. & Yet POE'ers won't admit that. Like I said POE'ers want multiplayer, they just want it on a leash. Not a fan of the leash. Ye played D2 maybe more than you, still not a fan of the leash.

- " Lost Ark isn't dead " Ok. 1.4 million players who first week prob weren't bots of multiple accounts for most of the og 1.4m. Then now that's 400,000 people. Tho this 400k is half bots & 1/4th multiple accounts. So really Lost Ark is at 100k active players. Only a few months after launch. Ye that's the #'s New World had before it died. If not worst; As LA has more bots. I'm pretty sure my pvp posts made most the pvpers leave. P2W posts made many leave. The game has nothing. Some alts to entertain people for 1 month more. Lost Ark shouldn't have people standing around town just for mini mobile phone event timed dungeons. The bosses have some tough mechanics, tho all the mobs are as stupid as storm troopers useless mobs, as the game gives no mob kill exp. So its pve is bad. Just the boss fights are above average. Pvp is unfair; without reward. POE is better. Yet POE has no new party features for Lazy Peon to immediately talk about, for his round 2 vid review of POE. Or any other reviewer. Till party features. They aren't going to make a new review vid or talk to their chat over some new league reskin mechanics, a handfold of new items, & a page ui rework. That's not enough to engage them.

Did 1 million Lost Ark quitters start playing POE? They should have. Why haven't they?

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kuciol wrote:

"

DalaiLama wrote:

Not impossible.

Diminishing Returns.

Doesnt work with fuckton of ways to scale damage.

It works just fine. You put the diminishing returns on the output levels - whether damage, speed, block etc. Some combinations would hit the declining return rate curve sooner than others.

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kuciol wrote:

You would have to put hard caps on everything and thats not gonna happen.

No hard cap, just an increasingly difficult path to eke out slightly more damage. It would be like street legal cars in real life. Getting to 100 mph isn't difficult. 150 mph takes a little more. Reaching 200 mph takes a lot more. Hitting 300 mph takes some serious effort and hitting 400 mph - hasn't happened yet.

Diminishing returns is how the real physical world works.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Not impossible but certainly close enough to impossible that the GGG developer who best characterised balancing PoE ("Balance is a moving target")

I don't doubt that determining the balance point is incredibly tough. If GGG makes it too easy and many PoE players would walk away. If they make too much content largely inaccessible, than players lose interest as well.

Currently, trading, serious crafting, smart builds and lots of grinding allow someone to reach and do the end content, provided they want to really put the effort and time in. The fun factor vs the work factor is slipping further away from enjoyment. GGG did the right thing by not nerfing any builds for one league and by allowing atlas content to be further adjusted to what players wanted.

GGG has made some effort to reign in some damage combinations, but from what I can see, they haven't really focused their efforts on the output totals.

Imagine governments trying to set different sales tax rates on every different item in the stores. That would be a GGG taxing system.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Because if Carl was right and 'balance is a moving target', then you can never achieve it completely, only touch it after a lot of time and patience right before it skitters off again. Sooner or later, you stop trying to hit it when 'close enough' suffices.

I've no disagreement with that.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

This is literally 'diminishing returns',

Diminishing returns at some point (both on player output such as damage and on monster output) is more of a quick and dirty way of setting some balance end points (the good enough) without having to nerf and mess up all the players with characters in the middle.

It is like setting a monthly budget. GGG hasn't done that, hence characters with gajillions of DPS, and trying to balance the game around very well crafted and traded items and harming all the players who are nowhere near that gear. [/quote]

I don't have a problem if f GGG says something like "We want the players to grind that hard and be that frustrated with the top end game content." I just don't think that all the builds in the middle should get hammered down to make that possible.

What GGG is doing now is more like a city requiring triangular wheels on vehicles instead of setting a speed limit.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

- " Not enough funds or dimishing returns " & if they don't have enough funds.

GGG has plenty of funds to continue a reasonable pace of development. They probably don't have enough staff, and don't want to increase staff for massive periodic game additions. That kind of rapid expansion ends up putting a lot of companies in bankruptcy or close to it.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

- Path of Exile players are way too " sure " of knowing how much funds POE has.

There's an annual statement GGG puts out showing their revenue, profits, taxes etc. Here's the 2020 report for instance:
https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/service/services/documents/C1C22EAA76EA616D25B68F1B1B8A385E

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RuneLuthien wrote:

The reason would be that they are missing 1 mill Lost Ark players, 20k Dragons Nest players, & 6 million Diablo Immortal players out of the 10 mill who prob have pc's.

Those players are not missing. Assuming that you will get a large portion of any given market (which is called penetration) is pure nonsense. Losing some of your market share, and working towards increasing it makes sense. People tend to go for variety in entertainment. Real ARPG's with some emphasis on the R will pull players that PoE will not without a major shift in game design. It would require a lot more game assets and time spent on interactive content.
I would personally love to see GGG add more of that to the game. It doesn't seem to be PoE's core market at all.

MMO is also something different that PoE isn't going to pull a lot of players from. PvP could pull in a slightly higher percentage of players - but unfortunately, PoE players didn't respond much when GGG initially added some slight PvP to the game. The Battle Royale event had a good response. I know there are a lot of people that love PvP. More power to them. I don't think PoE is a good game system for that. GGG could do some planning for PoE2 to make it more feasible.

"

RuneLuthien wrote:

For the ARPG genre. How is 1 to 30 million unactive mmorpg players; equated to diminished returns?

This is a fair question. A lot of ARPG players aren't looking for a significant gaming challenge that doesn't yield significant returns for the time invested. Whether it is the reward of world exploring and interacting in a storyline, or a smooth increase of power to progress in the game, the time/effort spent needs to have a worthwhile return.

Diminishing returns would allow PoE to have more consistent and predictable returns for the effort involved, and more players would find their time in the game enjoyable, rather than just necessary.

"

RuneLuthien wrote:

- It's literally just a few endgame story zones that aren't dead ends. A server town that's the size of a royal event pvp feature that equals 100 people. Some new party active skills with combo rotation equals like 10 new gems. 4 guild verse guild pvp castle areas like IRO WOE. A rp tavern next to lioneye with a lore expert reward ui page npc.

<SNIP>

Those seem like good possible additions to me (though PvP doesn't hold my personal interest). GGG can certainly add some more elements like that to the game. The could plan them in over a longer period. Whether it makes any sense to try and convery PoE 1 to that, in terms of time and payroll spent vs how many players they would gain - I don't know.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Are they not developing new zones eventually, is it all maps only?

It seems to be maps and league content only. I would love to see more zones, and I would like to see the possibility of the difficulty system return with levels at least equivalent to high yellos maps (the repeated content can stay as optional).

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RuneLuthien wrote:

- Offline POE?

Less latency problems for some players, lack of getting your build nerfed to being worthless, and possible modded content would be the big draws there.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

If you didn't want to play a game that leaned more multiplayer for POE; you WOULD go play Standard.

I've been playing only standard for last 3 leagues. It is fun to play with other people and fun to game on your own. Ritual had an interesting mechanic, so I played that league. Delve, Heist, Incursion (and to some degree Synthesis and Breach) were the only leagues that added any playable areas imo (maybe expedition does - never engaged with that content other than random map mobs).

I've never played enough PvP to seriously critique the balancing required for it to be successful. I'm sure there is a way. I think a lot of players would have to start requesting it for GGG to make the investment in terms of time spent, that could be on other aspects of the game.

GGG could do the equivalent of kickstarters - with supporter packs sold to add more Roleplaying, real PvP etc. They could figure out what the costs would be and put up what was needed in terms of packs sold to reach various goals.

Oh, you're...oh, okay. Good luck with that, old friend. ^_^

I have no real response to your response beyond 'yes', so why labour that point?

Oh, and one other thing: you're right, a GST is much better...but certain things here in Australia we do tax *ridiculously* heavily. I'm not sure if that can be worked into the discussion at hand, but it's an interesting fact. Blows American minds, that's for sure. ^_~

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DalaiLama wrote:

It works just fine. You put the diminishing returns on the output levels - whether damage, speed, block etc. Some combinations would hit the declining return rate curve sooner than others.

You are only changing the top and bottom value while still keeping the discrepency. Let me give you an example. How do you put it on omniscience build vs normal elemental build? Both can scale pretty much everything from crit and attack speed to some stupid conversions and "enemy takes increased damage"? Somebody that has lower tier gear will scale only 1 thing and hit diminishing returns the other will scale all of it.

The huge gap between them still stays as is, just the value changes. It will only shift from "one stat stacking" to more variety builds. The momment the omni dude hits soft cap he will try to get more attack speed, more flat pen, more crit or more base damage. In the end it will change nothing. PoE became to big for its own good and it wont work.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Did 1 million Lost Ark quitters start playing POE? They should have. Why haven't they?

No. They arent looking for such a game. They want MMO and PoE will never be one, deal with it.

don't get me wrong but... dimish returns is at most a stupid concept to somehow save your game. As seen in Wow wotlk with avoid and POE, also with avoid. Or maybe in DI with exp (WTF!!!!)
As a game system it is not fun, Its exactly the opposite. I removes any meaningful engagement because the game designer was too lazy or wants your money too badly.
scaling damage on some dimishing return makes furhter investment mood as soon as you reach a certain point. either you trick around it(which the designer will patch asap) or any build will have to viable up to a certain point to even play the game. Both things are not fun. If building itself is almost meaningless then i could go to D3 or D4 in the future. There you have this kind of meta plus simplified gear. And this gear is actually also a consequence of dimishing returns. Either you scale many different machanics and any combination(and with it kill any variance) or you reduce those possible mechanics.
and suddenly you have 3 meaningful stats and dmg per spell. Also called d3.

no thank you.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Diablo 3: 10,000 players?

D2R: How many still?

Lost Ark: 1.4 million player start to presently 400,000 players

Diablo Immortal: 10 million people tried the game. I'm glad to say I wasn't one of them.

I tried to find other popular ARPG single player games to list & their weren't any. It's not a successful genre.

from the diablo 3 wiki article...

"

The game set a new record for "fastest-selling PC game" by selling over 3.5 million copies in the first 24 hours of its release, and became the best-selling PC game of 2012 by selling over 12 million copies. As of August 2015, the number of sales had grown to over 30 million.

such a silly thread. in the absence of being able to make an argument for why an idea for the game is a good one or an ability to find any meaningful amount of people who agree, lets just misrepresent some player number data to make it seem like theres millions of people who want poe to have these things.


yawn.

This thread is no sillier than any other quarantine measure.