GGG's Regrets of 3.15 Patch - Player Backlash

@Zion

You’ve got points worth talking about, I’d like to have that discussion. Unfortunately, the primary issue you’re going to face is that “happy middle ground” is nearly impossible to find when the gulf between ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’, as another poster put it, is wider than Russia. ZZBs won’t be satisfied if it takes any longer than two minutes to clear a map and if it takes them any longer than forty-five seconds to burn down the toughest boss in the game – the other end of players wouldl be delighted if they stood the remotest chance of even seeing that content outside of watching some streamer play the game for them. Despite what much of the playerbase seems to think, watching some random Internet yaybo beat the game for you is no substitute for doing it yourself.

I recently saw a post talking about the flask rework and mentioning that flasks felt confused – prefix modifiers want you to use your flask proactively, anticipate and intercept damage spikes, while the new suffix modifiers are asking you to use your flasks reactively – to wait until you’re suffering an affliction and then use your flask. That’s a valid objection and an issue worth bringing up, though the post itself was msotly stating “flasks should just be purely proactive” and forgot that flask modifiers all being proactive is what led to Flask Piano in the first place. If flask modifiers were back to always being proactive, then the flask nerfs wouldn’t actually stop Flask Piano – they’d just make the return on Flask Piano weaker whilst still being ostensibly necessary. There needs to be new design work done, but the proactive vs. reactive conundrum is indeed worth addressing.

Players are protesting the flask changes primarily because ailments are much harder to deal with now. To me, that raises several questions: should ailments be negligible? Players in the past treated enemy ailments as total nonfactors, primarily because ailment immunity was basically free and if you didn’t have it you could get it via Flask Piano. Should enemy ailments matter more? If they should, should they be less common? If they should matter and should be common, should it be made easier to gear or skill out for ailment mitigation? Perhaps make the ailment mitigation mods more common and improve their magnitudes? Same with curses – should enemy curses be reduced in frequency/power, or should reduced curse effect on players be more easily obtainable?

Personally, I think it should be easier to skill/gear up for mitigation. I think Chris has it absolutely right in his overall design goal – you should be able to choose what scares you most and gear up to mitigate that, with the option to mitigate other things depending on how much damage you’re willing to sacrifice. I believe there’s a lot more design space to be had and more interesting choices to be made in making “reduced effect of [X]” more commonly available whilst making binary, on/off “are you completely immune to all ailments forever?(Y/N)” much harder to get. It forces tradeoffs and gets players thinking about what matters for their specific builds, which is all to the good.

The game’s mana issues are being addressed, but I’ll admit – I skipped Ultimatum and ended up using this league to experiment with life-spending builds. I’m running a Blood Magic SST Gladiator and it’s been wonderful so far, but I’ll admit that does mean I’ve bypassed the mana issues this league. To me, that’s cool – things like Lifetap, Blood Magic, Eldritch Battery, and other means of bypassing mana become more valuable and more interesting choices when mana costs aren’t basically nothing and it’s essentially free to cast via mana, without any investment whatsoever in mana regeneration or mana costs the way it has been for several leagues running now. Getting players to think about alternative engines to driving their builds is a desirable goal for me, but I’ll admit that’s perhaps not to everyone’s tastes.

Still. It’s a difficult spot for GGG to be in, especially given the complication of ZZBs raising untold havoc any time the game gets any slower for any reason. A slower, more methodical and interactive Path of Exile is a better Path of Exile, but we’ve become saddled with a significant chunk of playerbase that refuses to acknowledge that interacting with the game is better than not doing so. I mean, does anyone remember the days when people concerned themselves with protection against porcupine packs gibbing them? When you had to know what porcupines even were? I can’t remember the last time I bothered building protections against quillbeasts into my character, they’re just a differently shaped loot blob now like everything else.

That’s sad. Players should know what the critters in the game do. Other than Summon Spectre builds, anyways.

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frenrihr wrote:

Well if they backpedal on their changes then this game is doomed and means they rather retain players than actually make their vision happen which is sad, they at that point are selling out.

Hate the break it to you, but an outdated "vision" doesn't pay the bills.

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Regyoulator81 wrote:

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

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Regyoulator81 wrote:

Bruh.

Why would nerfs be a wet dream for me? LOL I'm still affected the same as everyone else. My bow frenzy char lost around 125k damage and my molten strike char lost 100k - 105k damage; meanwhile my bane char lost around 3k damage numbers wise but poison / chaos boost helps. I've always theory crafted but as for sharing with the community: if I happened to make a build that's endgame viable I would not go advertising it. That's exactly how nerfs wind up on the chopping block in the first place i.e. streamers, build of the week, etc

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

I don't play meta builds, I theory craft and make my own, which is time consuming but fun for me to understand why certain mechanics work instead of just being told to follow steps a, b and c. I try to achieve full build diversity, instead of merely playing along with the illusion of it.

This is what I was replying to but your basically unhappy with nerfs and builds dying. So it doesnt really matter about your theory crafting so much as the nerfs hit you.

Is a META game things change, being a build creator and enjoying it is actually advantageous in this position but bottom line is you just dont like the nerfs. Understandable but silly imo to expect pure unadulterated power creep and never get touched by a nerf hammer in a META changing game.

I'm unhappy with senseless nerfs, yes but absolutely annoyed with lazy nerfs that have no thought or actual reason being put into it other than the logic of "because we can". As a theory crafter, I'm very much used to seeing many many builds not working and accept that. It's something that is acknowledged by the choice of not following META builds. I still prefer to make my own builds because I don't want to feel limited to having to use 5 - 10 builds in the endgame just to enjoy PoE.

The #1 reason why 3.15 nerfs struck a cord, is because GGG wanted to nerf the top 1% but instead of aiming directly at the mechanics which enables those millions and billions of damage builds to work; they outright nerfed all support gems that literally everyone uses for any build (META or non). THAT is just wrong because it essentially pigeon holes players into having to go follow / use META builds ; just to be viable.



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frenrihr wrote:

Well if they backpedal on their changes then this game is doomed and means they rather retain players than actually make their vision happen which is sad, they at that point are selling out.

These changes wouldn't be needed in the first place if GGG would set capped limits. I'm very sure their vision is not consistent of having only 100 - 350 players on average instead of thousands or millions. Let's see how that works out in the big business picture, with each player contributing an average of $50 - $100.

*no matter if it's $100 or $1000 - the point is, that amount is NOT enough to make money to pay GGG employees & give Tencent their lion's share of their investment for buying GGG. Let's just be realistic here.

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frenrihr wrote:

Well if they backpedal on their changes then this game is doomed and means they rather retain players than actually make their vision happen which is sad, they at that point are selling out.

Do you want to play alone? There will be a mass exodus from the game, which is what is happening now.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

Posts like this are part of the overall problem.

I responded to his post in an appropriate manner not my problem if you dont like it.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

You have this narrative that you are dying to plaster all over the place, so you don't even pay attention to what's actually being said. And that's one of the main issues in the PoE community right now - You have too many people who just want to rant or get in their "zingers", that they aren't even paying attention to who is even left right now making the criticisms.

Oh I read the posts and understood them lol. Today is the first time I actually posted this league and its maybe 5 posts in total in various threads. In fact over the years Ive hardly even posted compared to most here even though I keep up with whats being said. Its usually better just to play then visit the forums

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

The people who are here are people who are trying to enjoy the game, but have very real, and very VALID concerns. Many of them are trying to even be constructive, both here and on Reddit.

But then you got people who pull crap like you just did - wanting to rant, instead of actually listening. And the funny thing is, you come off exactly like all those people you complained about.

How is that productive? IT ISN'T.

I care not for your made up numbers here or anywhere else. I also didnt rant or blindly ignore his concerns. You just dont like what I said, again not my problem that you perceive that Im posting All over the place trying to invalidate peoples concerns, when Im actually just posting my own thoughts on the matter in relation to their posts.

You wrote a whole wall of text about nothing. No you wrote about a misperception lol. How is that productive? Its not.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

GGG already came out and essentially admitted they screwed up on the mana and curse issues. They aren't infallible. And guess what? Even good people, like Zizaran, are hating the league, because in general, they don't feel it is overall FUN. He's not someone who's bitching about PoE all the time - in fact, he's one of the most considerate and polite streamers out there.

If even HE is seeing some issues, then its time to put down the damn pitchforks and start actually READING what people are upset about.

Yes like I said they made changes and made changes again and will continue to do so in line with their vision and feedback. Where do you get this infallible BS from. Its definitely not me. Its your perception of what I wrote.

Do you personally know that streamer? We shouldn't even go there. But for the record I have nothing against him or anyone else.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

The game changes to act 1 were actually pretty good, aside from the mana issues. But there is something to people not feeling the game is fun enough anymore.

And just toxically saying "fine, go play elsewhere" is a dead end - that is what happens to a game when it hemorrhage's players right before it dies - all that are left are die hards screaming "FINE GO, WE DON'T NEED YOU!". Its pretty damn ugly, and while POE isn't there yet, I don't want to see it start that trend either.

You see. I have never and will never tell people to go play somewhere else in any of the games I play. If that is your take from what I write then it is a conclusion you draw from what I have written that applies to your own circumstances but not actually said or directed at you. This is on you.

I am by no means a die hard as you suggest and didnt even play the last 2 leagues. Please take your theories about me elsewhere. This trend you talk of has been present in the forums (Esp. GD) for years, its not something that just happened due to this league lol.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

Frankly, I think the game as it slows down needs to be more rewarding, and people saying bosses and monsters need to be re-balanced so that being "One shot" isn't much of a thing any more have a VERY valid point. If we are slowing down to be a mechanics-driven league, then it's no fun for players to be killed by a default boss ability - there needs to be a reasonable balance and a happy middle ground found.

Your kidding right? This league has more ways to obtain gear and currency then most I remember. These are actually incorporated into just playing the game rather then unintentional broken/overlooked things.

Sure balance. Likely not to happening in the way people here think anytime soon and a constant process as Ive said before.

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ZionHalcyon wrote:

At least talking about that and discussing how that could be done is better than watching a bunch of Don Quixote's on the forum, jousting with windmills they think are dragons....

Interesting and ironic tc.

GGG picked an interesting time to reset the direction of their game.

I'm not going to debate good change bad change, but there is no denying they spent a long time going in one direction and this League is choosing a new path.

One could argue that by making the game more Zoomy and somewhat casual resulted in increased numbers as the game hit new highs with each successive league.

GGG understands their business, and if they feel that losing half of their player base is good for their core business, then best of luck to them.

They make their choices as the Developer and I make my own choice as to whether the game is entertaining me or if I should look elsewhere.

I've never been anywhere close to the 1% elite nor wish to be, and I don't want to be on that particular treadmill.

Once it becomes more work than fun for me, its time to rethink what I am doing.

Diablo 2:Resurrected is coming out soon, and I can buy it for the price of a Single MTX or supporter pack in PoE.

New World is shipping next month, Lost Ark is coming, Last Epoch will be multiplayer soon.

There is a lot of choice coming, best of luck GGG.

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ViolateTheDead wrote:

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frenrihr wrote:

Well if they backpedal on their changes then this game is doomed and means they rather retain players than actually make their vision happen which is sad, they at that point are selling out.

Hate the break it to you, but an outdated "vision" doesn't pay the bills.

I also do not see a problem, of "selling out" their game design to the people trying to enjoy it.

If that makes the game more enjoyable for the majority I am all down for it.

The one thing that stuck with me during the QnA this time was that Chris said, "It's a given that PoE 2 will be a success".

Is a success a game with half the playerbase?

I don't think his owners would agree with him, so we'll get to find out together.

Ultimately I feel as though what they did this patch was a slap in the face to a lot of players. Many people might never come back from the highs of 3.13 that they felt. I worry that this isn't just people leaving for a league, but that they're leaving for a while.

We'll only know by the end of the year with their financials. But I assure you things will change if they lose half their profits (just based on playerbase losses right now). Even if they lose 25% it would be a complete disaster.

Regardless of where you land on nerfs or buffs or whatever the way GGG went about doing this was wrong. And those people might now have some spite towards the company. I know I've not been happy for a year of their design choices and communication. But I'll still play for now. But next league has to be something truly special to get me back. Otherwise I'll just try something else.

GGG's hubris may be their undoing. There's no guarantees in life. PoE 2 with half the players from 3.13 would be an unmitigated disaster. If they lose customers for life being tone deaf and sweeping in their gutting of average player power, then they're unlikely to ever see them as paying customers again.

I know I wont be spending another penny because they simply don't know how to balance their game in an interesting way. Archetypes simply die under their vision to never come back again. Their idea of balance is sad. They sure made my friendslist sad. GLHF everyone.

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ViolateTheDead wrote:

Hate the break it to you, but an outdated "vision" doesn't pay the bills.

Exactly.

MTX pays the bills.

And, as long as there are enough people willing to buy the absurdly overpriced MTX (84USD, or 1 1/3 the price of a full AAA game, for a single armor transmog set), it doesn't matter if 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% or 80% of the playerbase quits playing.

As long as the MTX revenue is there, GGG is happy, and Tencent is happy.

I remember years ago, Chris said something about ther financial plan, needing around 10,000 players to "stay afloat". While this was years ago, I remember the number sounding very low. While that number is definitely higher today, I still think it's lower than we think.

While in other game comunities, like WoW, people are mad about the game being dumbed down and "casualized". Here, it's the oposite; people rage because GGG are making the game SLIGHTLY more difficult. And as long as it's economically safe for the to do so, I really don't see why they shouldn't. There are a few games out there not trying to cater to the masses, and I'm totally OK with PoE being one of those games. There should be room for both types of games.

While we're seeing serious reduction in player numbers now, we have no idea about the long term effects.