Shock Collar... I don't want to but...

"

crunkatog wrote:

Hasn't the "alpha" theory of canine social structure been recently debunked?

At any rate, we don't know your dog Sol and you do. And at the end of the day the law says you are ultimately responsible for any harm your dog does to others, or suffers in the course of behavioural correction.

So I can't really judge you if you decide to take a show-of-force approach to the barking. Just remember that a relationship based on fear or physical aggression is bound to be fragile, unrewarding, and negligent.

No, alpha males do very certainly still exist in the canine social structure. It was never debunked - it's simply just not that the alpha male is always chosen on a competitive hierarchical model but most often via parent-family relationship.
If non-related wolves are put in a group, an alpha male will still emerge.

You also have to ask what does "alpha" even mean or represent?
In any group there will always be someone who's decisions will be more enforced or accepted - making that being an "alpha".

"

Either give me a solution or don't post.

You should be happy he wasn´t a guy from Quality-control, QC´s tend to prefer the "humane" "(final)solution" by telling you to use a accerlated wooden stick with unspecified force to knock the dog out of his mental suffering disability, followed by a knife.
I´ll never understand their way of definitions.
Thats what they promote as a manual populationreduction for pigs, a very similar high populationrate like dogs.
Thats the solution i´m officially bound to promote.

"

crunkatog wrote:

Hasn't the "alpha" theory of canine social structure been recently debunked?

1000%. 'Dominance Dog Training' is antiquated and harmful. It's also lazy -- instinct is to yell at/castigate that which we don't understand, don't like, and want changed. Everyone's yelled at their pet at some point, unless it's a rock. And maybe even then.

But I expected to see 'alpha' mentioned on the first page of a thread about taking care of pets exclusively populated by Path of Exile junkies and wasn't disappointed. Some of you live in the fucking stone age.

Sol: good luck. Good on you for adopting a shelter but it's always a bit of a dice roll what sort of animal you're going to get. These are not 'normal' pets but creatures that have potentially been through some traumatic experiences. Crunkatog's response is pretty comprehensive, but I can say I'd never take in a shelter animal. I know I just don't have the right personality for a pet that actively needs to be helped back from a scared, damaged state. It would be unfair to me but especially to the poor animal. I DO have friends who take in rescues and it's a consuming, difficult task. I despise people who take it lightly or do it on a whim. Rarely goes well.

As for your friend who trains police dogs? How many of those dogs are also rescues? Not many:

"

For a long time, American police dog training schemes regularly imported K9 dogs from abroad. Puppies, which were specially bred and hand selected to perform in a superior manner, were shipped in and trained at US facilities.

And even those that are being used from a shelter/rescue are special: they're:

"

high-energy animals with significant amounts of spirit: certainly a handful for most households. Undesirable as those qualities might be in a pet, however, they are ideal for K9 work.

Instead of euthanasia, high energy animals go to Universal K9’s eight-week course.

https://blog.theanimalrescuesite.greatergood.com/cs-k9/

That's the key difference -- you're comparing almost made-to-order specialist animals to a castaway which has received a second chance. That second chance is you. Do you really want it associated with a life of (from the dog's perspective) unwarranted shocks/jolts and fear? Really?

If you can't handle the animal's behaviour, truly can't, I think it's better for the animal that you be honest with yourself and let someone else try.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

crunkatog wrote:

Hasn't the "alpha" theory of canine social structure been recently debunked?

1000%.

You're wrong, 1000%.
If both of you would read past the title, you would not even have to go further than the article itself to find that out.

People should not start acting it out with their own flawed interpretation of ethology but claiming that it doesn't exist is just plain and simply wrong.

I would also like to point out that taking a page long article with half of it's content being Twitter replies as a serious basis for an argument from science is an utter disaster.

And were that the only article on it, that'd be true. It is, however, not.

edit: redacted a little of the snark, after having spent some time doing better things (playing other games) with more worthy people (my nearest and dearest).

Because I'm an obsessive shit, I spent the better part of an hour reading up on current dog trainers'/animal psychologists' approach to Dominance Training and they're unanimously against it. It was in vogue in the 80s (like I said, the stone age) but ever since the debunking of the alpha wolf theory (which arose from studying wolves in captivity rather than the wild), pretty much every trainer worth their salt has moved towards understanding the animal rather than simply trying to 'dominate' it.

I stand by my basic point though: the internet is vast and wide, and it's easy to ask the right question of the right people. I don't believe PoE players are those people when it comes to much at all, including appropriate ways of handling problematic animals. Mostly people ask off-topic questions here to either entertain themselves or to be reassured. I think we know which it is in this case.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

And were that the only article on it, that'd be true. It is, however, not.

Science does not work on how many articles were published on it nor did you provide an article or source which does follow your hypothesis.
You also comfortably ignore the fact that you yourself claimed to agree with the article "1000%" itself but contradict it's message.

Let me make your life easier and provide you the first 3 Google results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology)
https://www.livingwithwolves.org/about-wolves/social-wolf/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/dominance-hierarchy

This does not mean that it applies to manosphere, which is where the insecurity against this social model comes from.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I've better things to do with more worthy people. I pray the same goes for you.

I don't think people here are less "worthy" than any other place - save the prayers.

I wanted to give everyone an update: Since I truly love you all sincerely... Even though we may bicker at each other, I am very grateful for all the responses.

So... I've decided not to buy the shock collar. I have a neighbor who approached me and he is in his 80's. It fing turns out his MOS in the military was... can you fing guess it?!!!!

Military Dog Trainer... I am not sure what he said specifically, something mos...etc. Anyways long story short, he lost his dog during deployment.

We are in a Pandemic so I don't want to post something traumatic or depressing... but I was fing amazed.

Larry- Watch this...

Sol- What is that in your hand?

Larry- You millennials, its a fing treat. Going to teach you something... You adopted the two dogs at a very young age, the one that barks... He is actually doing his job. This is your fault...

Sol- He is going to get me in trouble with the Golf community, I already had a complaint.

Larry- Relax give me the dog... I guarantee you in five minutes I'll teach him how to bark on command.

Sol- Noooo I'm trying to stop that behaivour

Larry- Quiet!


He is in his 80's so I shut the f up and let him do his thing, OMFG he now barks on command. His barking stopped... He didn't explain to me his sorcery, but holy shit my dog DOESNT BARK!!!

I'm guessing if he doesn't get a reward for barking; he doesn't... Holy crap its true!!!

I just recently moved to this neighborhood who would of thought my senior citizen neighbor Larry is a dog whisperer LOL.

Edit: I have to do this everyday in the morning before I give them breakfast... Not sure why he said to do it in the morning, but this morning I followed his directions its 8:58am golfer are out and the two dogS are literally lounging LOL.

negative reinforcement although harsh and perhaps difficult to enforce is highly effective.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Off-topic forum for a selfish ARPG. Etc. I've better things to do with more worthy people...

Man, you are a smart person, why do you do that? I mean, you do realize that comments like that, is what gets you into trouble around these here parts, liberal generalization and labeling others, because they happen not to share your point of view. I might not see eye to eye with you, in certain matters, that doesn't necessarily make me your enemy, one to be scorned and shunned. Nevertheless, I find your opinion interesting, particularly since you have your way of putting it, in such a charming and eloquent manner, at least most of the times. It behooves oneself to always try to retain one's composure, though. At times you fail miserably in this particular department.

Also you don't... debunk aeons of natural selection with a handful of articles, especially when the ephemeral and fickle mentality of the social media crowds gets involved. Hashtags is not knowledge. Influencers and followers are not scholars, when the vast majority can hardly be called... of average education, and that's a euphemism. Scholars are busy reading real books, they don't... tweet, at least not in such frequency, if at all. Natural Order Chaos is eternal, relentless, AND VINDICTIVE. It'll take more than a few humans ego —no matter how proportionate or disproportionate if you prefer that is— to defy, alter, let alone disrupt the endless cycles of Nature. She will always find a way. You can take that to the... bank.

fwiw I was just asking if any of this alpha dog shit had been debunked. An honest question mark.

I read the article, it was no scientific veterinary consensus statement mind you, but like most ordinary numpties, we hear about these things and want to know more but don't have loads of time.

It's not my dog and not my decision. If it were my dog and my responsibility, I would probably spend more than 30 seconds googling. But hey, it's not my dog.

Thanks sol for letting us know you have a new plan in the works. Good luck to you and your puppers.