So if you quit PoE...

"

Nomancs wrote:

It is very weird approach to play RPG for rewards, and not because of the story. PoE is fun for me despite if I get OP item or not - as you wrote, it is a reward and it doesn't change if I have fun in game or not. My "fun" is not build around getting OP items, but around killing (hopefully hard) stuff (and I don't need item editor for that). OP items are making game too easy at some point, so I get bored faster - this is medium problem for me, and big problem for GGG, because people will finish what they wanted to do way faster, get bored, quit -> less money to develop the game.

A simple series of questions.

1) If you do not care if you get an OP item or not, why did Harvest seemingly affect you to the point you make the posts you do?

2) Did you not have the option of just not using Harvest? If you truly wanted a challenge, why didn't you just do that?

There's an inherent contradiction in your thought processes here. If you wanted a hard boss challenge because everything else is too easy, why wouldn't you pick a weaker build? Or perhaps go to SSF? Or even try to make a build with something that doesn't even have a build guide?

"

Isn't blackmailing a really low thing to do? It is like treatening someone with suicide if other person will not love you the way you want. If you really want to quit, you don't make big annoucements and threats, you just quit and forget (this is a computer game, not real life, nothing to regreat here, you had fun and you move to other entertaining thing/hobby). I quit WoW in Legion because I didn't liked the way they casualized the game, so I just started playing something else - no big thing, no wall of text, not even a single post on forum - because I why would I bother about hobby that isn't fun anymore?

Did you really compare disengagement from an agreement to blackmail? You misunderstand how business works. GGG offers entertainment. If I agree, I continue with them. If I disagree, I do not continue with them. If I like them, I tell them how agreeable their changes are and what direction I would like. If they do not listen, I tell them I will leave. And if they still do not listen, then it's purely disengagement.

Rather, a business owner in the real world listens when long standing customers tell them they're about to take off if things don't change. Because that's the most direct feedback you're going to get that the direction being taken is one most disagreeable.

"

Indeed, it is a recreation, no need for wall of text full of tears because item editor was removed. But it seems for people it is way harder to quit a game than you think.

People have called a great many things addictive and hard to quit. Outside of hard drugs, nearly all of those things have faded.

"

We both know that there are people, a lot of them, that can do what I do 10x faster and better in PoE, so spare me "compliments" like that.

Now I'm convinced that life has been hard on you because you can't even seem to take a compliment.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Rather, a business owner in the real world listens when long standing customers tell them they're about to take off if things don't change. Because that's the most direct feedback you're going to get that the direction being taken is one most disagreeable.

There are two types of gamers, casual and hardcore. They totally don't agree with each other. One want the game to be easier. The other want the game to be harder.

It is just a question of which type of customers do the business want to keep.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

A simple series of questions.

1) If you do not care if you get an OP item or not, why did Harvest seemingly affect you to the point you make the posts you do?

2) Did you not have the option of just not using Harvest? If you truly wanted a challenge, why didn't you just do that?

There's an inherent contradiction in your thought processes here. If you wanted a hard boss challenge because everything else is too easy, why wouldn't you pick a weaker build? Or perhaps go to SSF? Or even try to make a build with something that doesn't even have a build guide?

You totaly confused having fun - I think for you having fun is only when you get rewarded with OP item. Please, read again, because I explained everything you're asking in question nr 1 here:

"

Nomancs wrote:

PoE is fun for me despite if I get OP item or not - as you wrote, it is a reward and it doesn't change if I have fun in game or not. My "fun" is not build around getting OP items, but around killing (hopefully hard) stuff (and I don't need item editor for that). OP items are making game too easy at some point, so I get bored faster - this is medium problem for me (EDIT - because there is no challenge after few days), and big problem for GGG, because people will finish what they wanted to do way faster, get bored, quit -> less money to develop the game.

I did a test few years ago in new season in Diablo 3, I started season with a team of people from the guild I joined (I didn't know them before, but this is irrelevant), we formed what we expected to be good group compo, pushed greater rifts to level 100+ on day one, scored even high place on the ladder, and... we jus quit day after, because there was nothing more interesting to do. We had great gear, because Diablo 3 basicly showers you with OP loot designed for your character and it killed fun almost instantly. So we just quit, no posts, no bragging or whining. That is what mature people do when they really quit the game.

About your question nr 2 - I want to have challenge so I have to use everything I can, evey method I can think of, to beat the game, and improve my own skills, game knowledge and as well as my character improvements - and I like to check how well are other doing, so I can see how much I can get better and faster. One of those methods is harvest aka item editor, that is just making me OP so I can do what I wanted way to fast - and there is no more fun in the game. I want this moment to be as delayed as possible so I could enjoy and have fun playing longer without getting bored. To summ it up, item editor is shortening my fun in the game, so I go play something else and I would rather play free game longer than buy some game.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Did you really compare disengagement from an agreement to blackmail? You misunderstand how business works. GGG offers entertainment. If I agree, I continue with them. If I disagree, I do not continue with them. If I like them, I tell them how agreeable their changes are and what direction I would like. If they do not listen, I tell them I will leave. And if they still do not listen, then it's purely disengagement.

No, blackmail is blackmail, no matter how much you try to justify it. If you don't have fun playing the game, you don't play the game. If GGG would listen to players, we would have guaranteed exalted drop after each quest and mirror drop after each act, no death penalty and free level 100 after killing maven. Do you think listening to players blackmails is still what good company do?

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Rather, a business owner in the real world listens when long standing customers tell them they're about to take off if things don't change. Because that's the most direct feedback you're going to get that the direction being taken is one most disagreeable.

Please, confirm that you just wrote that corpos listen to customers instead of specialists who tell them what will be profitable?

"

Tsokushin wrote:

People have called a great many things addictive and hard to quit. Outside of hard drugs, nearly all of those things have faded.

I will reply with my own quote (and your posts prove my point):

"

Nomancs wrote:

But it seems for people it is way harder to quit a game than you think.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Now I'm convinced that life has been hard on you because you can't even seem to take a compliment.

If you would tell to a regular adult that you congratulate him, because he can tie his own shoes, is that a compliment or an insult?

I really do enjoy conversating with you, tho it seems your gaming philosophy is way different. I think you're missing the point that Path of Exile was meant to be a hard game.

"

Nomancs wrote:

I think you're missing the point that Path of Exile was meant to be a hard game.

Path of Exile is more of a grinder. Do something over and over again for minuscule chance you get lucky. Some people seem to be quite fond of that. It isn't just Korean MMO that is full of endless grinding and farming.

"

You totaly confused having fun - I think for you having fun is only when you get rewarded with OP item. Please, read again, because I explained everything you're asking in question nr 1 here:

No, fun for me in this game is progressing my idea or theme in this game while interacting as little as possible with systems that are place there for the sole reason of being inconvenient.

"

I did a test few years ago in new season in Diablo 3, I started season with a team of people from the guild I joined (I didn't know them before, but this is irrelevant), we formed what we expected to be good group compo, pushed greater rifts to level 100+ on day one, scored even high place on the ladder, and... we jus quit day after, because there was nothing more interesting to do. We had great gear, because Diablo 3 basicly showers you with OP loot designed for your character and it killed fun almost instantly. So we just quit, no posts, no bragging or whining. That is what mature people do when they really quit the game.

So, you accepted Haedrig's gift for the season. You understand if you so desired, you could have just not accepted it and grinded for the gear sets yourself yes? Why did you accept Haedrig's gift? Also, that was a one time stint into d3 for you. Chances are, you never liked it to begin with. Hence, the difference in our feedback.

"

About your question nr 2 - I want to have challenge so I have to use everything I can, evey method I can think of, to beat the game, and improve my own skills, game knowledge and as well as my character improvements - and I like to check how well are other doing, so I can see how much I can get better and faster. One of those methods is harvest aka item editor, that is just making me OP so I can do what I wanted way to fast - and there is no more fun in the game. I want this moment to be as delayed as possible so I could enjoy and have fun playing longer without getting bored. To summ it up, item editor is shortening my fun in the game, so I go play something else and I would rather play free game longer than buy some game.

Again, stands to reason if you want this challenge, why not take on the fullness of that challenge by going HC SSF? Or alternatively, just not using the stuff you deem OP? Take for example, I have never ever made a Blade Vortex Build, a pure summoner build, a Cyclone build because those things are known to be OP which is why I never touched them. Like, I was putting into works a dual wield Charged Dash Jugg, but I don't see that happening outside of Harvest.

But more to the point, it seems you're fine with taking the easier path for yourself and then calling it the harder path because less people have decided to put up with it. In all these situations you listed, you have taken the known easier path, but when it comes to Harvest, when you have the option of also taking the harder path, you do not, and you deem it to be too much for other people.

"

No, blackmail is blackmail, no matter how much you try to justify it. If you don't have fun playing the game, you don't play the game. If GGG would listen to players, we would have guaranteed exalted drop after each quest and mirror drop after each act, no death penalty and free level 100 after killing maven. Do you think listening to players blackmails is still what good company do?

Methinks you would be better suited to refreshing what blackmail truly is. Also, if this game is "hardcore" and that is an audience GGG doesn't even want, then there's nothing to be "blackmailed" about, is there?

"

Please, confirm that you just wrote that corpos listen to customers instead of specialists who tell them what will be profitable?

Specialists are paid to do a job. Customers pay corporations to do a job. Logically, it would make sense to do what you're paid to do, else you stop getting paid. So yes, from a business decision, corporations listen to customers. Especially when your so-called "specialists" can be quite out of touch.

"

But it seems for people it is way harder to quit a game than you think.

Time will tell.

"

If you would tell to a regular adult that you congratulate him, because he can tie his own shoes, is that a compliment or an insult?

I really do enjoy conversating with you, tho it seems your gaming philosophy is way different. I think you're missing the point that Path of Exile was meant to be a hard game.

See, we find more of the contradictions here. You just called Path of Exile a hard game. That I was congratulating you on. Either it's a super hardcore game that nobody can finish or it's as easy as tying your shoes. But, then again, you've shown that you yourself do not take upon yourself the hardest of challenges in the game. The points of my first post in this topic are becoming even more relevant here.

Do you seek some sort of middle ground between what's hard and what's truly hard? Or is the game too unrewarding in the hardest mode? Or do you just enjoy the gambling?

Just questions of perspective here.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

No, fun for me in this game is progressing my idea or theme in this game while interacting as little as possible with systems that are place there for the sole reason of being inconvenient.

So you ment progressing your build with item editor?

"

Tsokushin wrote:

So, you accepted Haedrig's gift for the season.

No, I was playing non-set based legendary shaman, so no, couldn't use set items. Sorry to invalidate your argument so quickly, not that it was even relevant for the discussion.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Again, stands to reason if you want this challenge, why not take on the fullness of that challenge by going HC SSF? Or alternatively, just not using the stuff you deem OP? Take for example, I have never ever made a Blade Vortex Build, a pure summoner build, a Cyclone build because those things are known to be OP which is why I never touched them. Like, I was putting into works a dual wield Charged Dash Jugg, but I don't see that happening outside of Harvest.

1. Because I play with friends and I really do enjoy economy fun
2. I'm not interested in HC, especially with performance issues.
3. I don't think you understand, I want to be as quick and as efficient as I can be, for my own satisfaction of improving myself rather than having false sence of progression through item editor.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

But more to the point, it seems you're fine with taking the easier path for yourself and then calling it the harder path because less people have decided to put up with it. In all these situations you listed, you have taken the known easier path, but when it comes to Harvest, when you have the option of also taking the harder path, you do not, and you deem it to be too much for other people.

I think you missed that I also wrote about using game knowledge, that means using more efficient paths. Can you explain to me, how taking less efficient path is more efficient in your opinion?

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Methinks you would be better suited to refreshing what blackmail truly is. Also, if this game is "hardcore" and that is an audience GGG doesn't even want, then there's nothing to be "blackmailed" about, is there?

Sure, english is not my primary language, but what describe threats to leave the game if GGG will not do what they want is ny my language called blackmail. I would even say some harvest quitters write their post like emotional blackmails. You can call it however you want - it will not change what it really is. Does GGG care about it or not, is not relevant.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

"

Please, confirm that you just wrote that corpos listen to customers instead of specialists who tell them what will be profitable?

Specialists are paid to do a job. Customers pay corporations to do a job. Logically, it would make sense to do what you're paid to do, else you stop getting paid. So yes, from a business decision, corporations listen to customers. Especially when your so-called "specialists" can be quite out of touch.

They will do what you will pay them for, not what you will like. Blizztivision made Warcraft 3 refunded - did they fixed it the way people want? hell no.
I am surprise you have faith in corpos thinking that they have your best interest at heart.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

See, we find more of the contradictions here. You just called Path of Exile a hard game. That I was congratulating you on. Either it's a super hardcore game that nobody can finish or it's as easy as tying your shoes. But, then again, you've shown that you yourself do not take upon yourself the hardest of challenges in the game. The points of my first post in this topic are becoming even more relevant here.

Do you seek some sort of middle ground between what's hard and what's truly hard? Or is the game too unrewarding in the hardest mode? Or do you just enjoy the gambling?

Just questions of perspective here.

There is no real question here, Path of Exile have technical issues that I can live with and still have a lot of fun on softcore, but not on hardcore. Simple as that.

"

awesome999 wrote:

Path of Exile is more of a grinder.

Indeed, but this is what we have signed for :)

"

So you ment progressing your build with item editor?

It must be the differences in language again. Editor usually means you can put whatever you want to the disregard of any rules. Like Jamella editor in d2 is an item editor, able to place pretty much unlimited modifiers and affixes rolled beyond the range of the base game. Harvest is not an item editor. Harvest is an item crafting system. And crafting is loose here because there's still significant RNG involved.

"

No, I was playing non-set based legendary shaman, so no, couldn't use set items. Sorry to invalidate your argument so quickly, not that it was even relevant for the discussion.

Well now that we can demonstrably show you're lying about this. No group ever made it past GR100 until patch 2.5, which is the same patch that released Haedrig's gift. And again, the only groups on the leaderboard above GR100 were using sets, except for a few niche monk builds. But you're saying shaman, which I assume is Witch doctor?

"

1. Because I play with friends and I really do enjoy economy fun
2. I'm not interested in HC, especially with performance issues.
3. I don't think you understand, I want to be as quick and as efficient as I can be, for my own satisfaction of improving myself rather than having false sence of progression through item editor.

What was stopping you from not using Harvest?

"

I think you missed that I also wrote about using game knowledge, that means using more efficient paths. Can you explain to me, how taking less efficient path is more efficient in your opinion?

Are you saying you didn't have the self control to avoid harvest if you didn't like it even though it was the path of most efficiency?

But if efficiency is really all you're about, wouldn't there be games that are far more efficient at providing fun than PoE? Especially time-wise, money-wise, etc....

Or are you only seeking something condsidered "hardcore" for the sake of being in that rarefied atmosphere? I mean, there are truly hardcore games like the dark souls series and sekiro, and I do have quite a lot of fun with those. As opposed to PoE, where everyone seems to call it hardcore but all it is is a grind.

"

Sure, english is not my primary language, but what describe threats to leave the game if GGG will not do what they want is ny my language called blackmail. I would even say some harvest quitters write their post like emotional blackmails. You can call it however you want - it will not change what it really is. Does GGG care about it or not, is not relevant.

Well you can look it up in any english dictionary, what you're describing is not blackmail. Just the same as Harvest is not an item editor.

"

They will do what you will pay them for, not what you will like. Blizztivision made Warcraft 3 refunded - did they fixed it the way people want? hell no.
I am surprise you have faith in corpos thinking that they have your best interest at heart.

Where did this train of thought come from? You do realize that you're defending a corporation here over what a vast majority of people want right? But, nevermind that.

Simply put, a business that goes against the wishes of a customer or customers will soon find itself without those customers.

"

"

Do you seek some sort of middle ground between what's hard and what's truly hard? Or is the game too unrewarding in the hardest mode? Or do you just enjoy the gambling?

Just questions of perspective here.

There is no real question here, Path of Exile have technical issues that I can live with and still have a lot of fun on softcore, but not on hardcore. Simple as that.

There is a real question here, but you're skirting it. What is the essence of fun for you in Path of Exile?

Is it just being efficient? If so, why do you want Harvest nerfed? If it's too easy, what stops you from just not using it? Is it the matter of just being inefficient? But then there is a logic break in coherency in that you're actively advocating for far more inefficiency for yourself.

Is it just being the most hardcore? It cannot be that because you've given reasons why you don't play hardcore.

Is it the item acquisition phase? If so, this refers back to my point that the item seems to be the reward for you.

Is it that you just enjoy grinding? Fair enough, but I do more of that in real life, so without denigrating your choice, I can respect that.

Because, for me, fun in path of exile is simply from what they advertised in 2016 when I started. That is, taking the idea of a build, no matter how ridiculous, and finding a way of making it work. And for someone like me, with harvest being changed in such a manner, will no longer be possible. Niche builds require niche and specific stats on items people probably just vendor rather than sell.

And, I do not want to go back to the game of farming currency and buying upgrades. Or glorified gambling for that matter.

Bait thread or no, I want to add my view that Last Epoch's crafting system is exquisite. A shame there are other aspects of the game I don't love as much, but for a hardcore ARPG veteran, LE's itemisation is about as good as it gets.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

It must be the differences in language again. Editor usually means you can put whatever you want to the disregard of any rules. Like Jamella editor in d2 is an item editor, able to place pretty much unlimited modifiers and affixes rolled beyond the range of the base game. Harvest is not an item editor. Harvest is an item crafting system. And crafting is loose here because there's still significant RNG involved.

There is almost no RNG involved, so it is more of an item editor than crafting system.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Well now that we can demonstrably show you're lying about this. No group ever made it past GR100 until patch 2.5, which is the same patch that released Haedrig's gift. And again, the only groups on the leaderboard above GR100 were using sets, except for a few niche monk builds. But you're saying shaman, which I assume is Witch doctor?

Please stop lying, I clearly wrote, that I was playing build that didn't use set gear, so I coudn't benefit from it, not that there was no Haedrig's gift. And it was very popular party build at that season, few years ago.

"

Nomancs wrote:

No, I was playing non-set based legendary shaman, so no, couldn't use set items.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Well you can look it up in any english dictionary, what you're describing is not blackmail. Just the same as Harvest is not an item editor.

I think if you will use wikipedia, what I am describing as emotional blackmail will fit in the description there.

All you do is asking me constantly about fun - and you can read my answers in previous posts. You keep asking why I don't avoid harvest, and I explained that in previous posts.

I was going to respond to other points, it was quite enjoyable at the begining, but since you're starting to twist my words, and use lies I don't see any point in this discussion. If you think that item editor is something you need in grinding ARPG, than I can't help it. You wrote that you will quit, because of how easy it is so I can only write "bye, have a great time in other games and see you soon".

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

Bait thread or no, I want to add my view that Last Epoch's crafting system is exquisite. A shame there are other aspects of the game I don't love as much, but for a hardcore ARPG veteran, LE's itemisation is about as good as it gets.

What aspects you don't like? What about endgame?

"

Nomancs wrote:

There is almost no RNG involved, so it is more of an item editor than crafting system.

There's plenty of RNG involved, especially when mods share the same tag, and when certain mods have multiple tiers. The kind of things you'd be able to just circumvent in an actual item editor.

"

Please stop lying, I clearly wrote, that I was playing build that didn't use set gear, so I coudn't benefit from it, not that there was no Haedrig's gift. And it was very popular party build at that season, few years ago.

"

Nomancs wrote:

No, I was playing non-set based legendary shaman, so no, couldn't use set items.

You said your group was the first to break GR100. Which only first happened in season 5 and that was because of the sets that allowed people to hit those upper levels first to grind up the XP needed to hit the upper paragon levels. But, on the back of that, you said you did so without a set. This doesn't ring true at all.

"

I think if you will use wikipedia, what I am describing as emotional blackmail will fit in the description there.

All you do is asking me constantly about fun - and you can read my answers in previous posts. You keep asking why I don't avoid harvest, and I explained that in previous posts.

Emotional blackmail? Really? This is a video game that GGG publishes in the hopes of getting money from players. Having a large population is one of the selling points they have for also attempting to gain money from customers.

I must say I may have misjudged you. You're in far deeper of a relationship with GGG than I had initially thought, then. The fact that you consider people saying they're leaving a business as "emotional blackmail" just means you're involved in this game on an emotional level.

And if people saying that they don't like the direction of the service GGG is offering and will go elsewhere is "emotional blackmail" then what you're doing is clearly narcissitic emotional abuse to those of us who don't like the changes. Like an abusive spouse, you go around saying that we're not good enough, the other games out there aren't good enough, suck it up and deal with what's here.

Now, maybe all of it is hyperbole and maybe none of it is. But calling dissatisfaction with a service and saying you're unwilling to continue if it doesn't improve or take a direction you don't like is not emotional blackmail.

"

I was going to respond to other points, it was quite enjoyable at the begining, but since you're starting to twist my words, and use lies I don't see any point in this discussion. If you think that item editor is something you need in grinding ARPG, than I can't help it. You wrote that you will quit, because of how easy it is so I can only write "bye, have a great time in other games and see you soon".

That's on you. If you can't answer easy questions then I don't know what to tell you. I'm starting to go back to my first post in this thread. I really do think, now, that you only play this game to feel superior.


Have a good day, king. May this wonderful empire of dust be yours forever.