Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

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Obright wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

Yes it ruins the economy.
Yes it ruins the game.

Deal with it.

Harvest crafting fixes the economy, in spite of the handful of people who benefited from it being broken in the first place.

Indeed. Harvest made crafting = crafting. Finally after years of failed attempts, it was no longer gambling. The people upset about it were those who already got rich from gambling. The 1%.

I certainly hope the 1% will keep the game floating with all the rising competition. Especially when the masses start leaving and they have no one to sell those 1 mirror items to anymore.

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I_NO wrote:

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hidden_gobsek wrote:

Harvest does not ruin the game.
Harvest does not ruin the economy.

It does impact on prices of course and hardly bloats to the faces of the monopolists big crafters.

That is all. Nobody other than this very few percentage of people are not impacted.

PS and of course harvest is not good for those greedy nolife streamers. Exactly those that say this nerfs will ot touch them. They must be eating any shit the game throws at them OR they are paid for their work.
How is the feeling of being paid bit***?

Yes it ruins the economy.
Yes it ruins the game.

Deal with it.

Deal with what? [Removed by Support]

The economy in PoE is like the biggest lie ever because it's not a economy but a monopoly.

How does it ruin the game? By having player enjoy the game when they can finally manage some craft thank to Harvest? haha. Oh boy , you little exalt slammer monkey <3

Deal with it, you're just out of your mind

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KittenSmasher wrote:

Indeed. Harvest made crafting = crafting. Finally after years of failed attempts, it was no longer gambling. The people upset about it were those who already got rich from gambling. The 1%.

I certainly hope the 1% will keep the game floating with all the rising competition. Especially when the masses start leaving and they have no one to sell those 1 mirror items to anymore.

Actually, Harvest is still a fake crafting system since it's still gambling lol. The remove/add of X type are the closest to "crafting" but it's still a gamble. A real crafting system would allow you to decide which craft you want and work toward upgrade that affix to the tier you need over time. Kinda similar to how Last Epoch is doing it even if Last Epoch system is far from being perfect.

The famous 1% is what GGG is proud of, which I still don't understand and probably never will. I'd love Chris to answer why they focus the game on that 1% instead of the whole community, but again... this will be never answered.

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aggrofee wrote:

I haven´t read the whole 400 pages of comments, so i don´t know, if anyone already posted my following ideas for harvest.
But here is what went through my head recently and i just wanted to share it :)


The TFT-Discord-Problem:
I think nobody enjoys the selling-buying, risking items and currency to scams etc..
Make it so that you can save crafts on currency items.
Got an "Add Physical" Mod? -> pay an Exalt at the Lifeforce Harvester or Hortistation, get a "Harvest-Orb" that adds a physical mod and is tradeable.
Same for annul mods, divine mods etc.. pay one of the corresponding orb and get that "Harvest-Orb" with the craft.
This also solves the 10 craft-saving-limit, which can be really annoying.
Furthermore it uses currency items and takes them out of the economy + the saving of a craft has it´s price in itself - in my opinion a good thing.


"Perfect Items" and Harvest as an "Item-Editor":
As GGG stated, perfect items should be extremely rare and near impossible to obtain - Harvest contradicts that philosophy (wether you agree with that philosophy or not, doesn´t matter).
My idea for this is that every mod added via harvest craft is tagged as "harvested mod" in a greenish-blue color (or something like that) and every item can only have 1 or maybe 2 of those mods like crafted mods from the bench but not exclusive to those.

With that you would start an item with fossils or alterations or an awakeners orb etc.. so you get an item with 2-4 good to perfect mods and then finish it off with harvested mods and a crafted mod.
This keeps Harvest incredibly powerful for the right situations but also limits its power to not create the perfect item with enough harvestcrafts.


I´d like to read some of your opinions to this.
Thanks!

Actually, this is wrong again because it would give control to the 1% again and they would gain the monopoly on everything again. More tradable thing = more scammer, more people monopolizing and price fixing.

I don't get the idea of why a near perfect items should be "extremely rare and near impossible to obtain"... That's just wrong in every possible way. You SHOULD be able to make it a GOAL to work toward the perfect item you need for your build. It's not a goal to play the game blindly in HOPE to get an item to drop for your build only. Why would you need to just gamble all your time and just get useless junk because the system of gambling is just that bad? That's just stupid.

Build diversity was brought back from the dead a little this league thank to harvest. And now, they're killing again by making

Anyway, the Casino that is PoE is still just a gambling feast where player will never get any control over what they can gain from the game.

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Zaraky wrote:

I don't get the idea of why a near perfect items should be "extremely rare and near impossible to obtain"

There are two old school beliefs that GGG is stubbornly clinging to:

That PoE is Standard and not the temporary leagues.

That it's important to protect the egos of the elite players that get upset when their trophy case of mirror items becomes obsolete due to a new crafting mechanic.

At some point this will be the downfall of PoE.

A tiny decrease in a tiny handful of players' profit margins

VS

A huge increase in enjoyment and playability for by far the greater number of players, allowing them to play the game in a much more efficient, less maddening way.

To me it's insulting that we even have to argue about this, and it says everything.

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Ruffleberg wrote:

There are two old school beliefs that GGG is stubbornly clinging to:

That PoE is Standard and not the temporary leagues.

That it's important to protect the egos of the elite players that get upset when their trophy case of mirror items becomes obsolete due to a new crafting mechanic.

At some point this will be the downfall of PoE.

You're mistaken on both counts:

1. League is their primary focus, Standard is the afterthought. This change actually hurts Standard most of all — many people are only active on Standard again because of Harvest; it's the first time Standard has had any kind of compelling endgame outside of Delve in years.

2. Mirror items get dethroned all the time — Synthesis, Harvest, Conquerors, and Maven all raised the ceiling for items significantly. Nerfing Harvest does not lower this ceiling; obsolete items remain obsolete.

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Karcaroth wrote:

You're mistaken on both counts:

1. League is their primary focus

2. Mirror items get dethroned all the time

The temporary leagues are the business focus, not the game design focus.

Maybe it was wrong to define Elite players by mirror items. It is clear GGG wants to support and protect "Expert players" though.

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Karcaroth wrote:

2. Mirror items get dethroned all the time — Synthesis, Harvest, Conquerors, and Maven all raised the ceiling for items significantly. Nerfing Harvest does not lower this ceiling; obsolete items remain obsolete.

Without harvest, lot of the items crafted with it will stay the best for as long as they will not be other targeted crafting.

they will probably be some other things that were not possible, but item crafted with harvest will not becam obsolete, they will still be mirror tiers. (and lot of item easy to craft with harvest will becam near mirror tiers)

I'm sure much of what I'm about to say has already been said. I've read some posts and watched videos on the topic and here's my 2c.

This is a big mistake.

I'm an average player who's put a lot of time into this game. But I'm definitely not one of the 1%. Heck, I think this is the first league where I killed T8 Sirus, and it had nothing to do with harvest, but with the changes you made to ascendency. I've never crafted anything good from harvest. Part of this is due to my ignorance, part is my lack of patience. I've recently tried learning how to utilize harvest crafting, and man, what a pain in the ass. I have been trying to craft a specific staff, and still haven't been able to do it. Part of the reason is because I was starting all wrong. I needed a Warlord base to start. Didn't realize that. Tons of time wasted. So, now, 1000 alteration shards and hours later, I still don't have my T1 base.

That right there should show that the premise of other forms of currency are irrelevant is bogus and I think I know more about "crafting" in this game then whoever wrote that. I needed to utilize regals, annuls, augments just to get one stat to start with. Most of the other currency is still useful. I never got a 6 link from harvest. How many of you have? Fusing is still needed and so are jewelers. Still need jewelers and chromatics for bench crafting hard colored sockets. Still need vaals to adjust corrupt items which you can't do in harvest. Chaos orbs aren't used because, well we all know, and that's why it's a trade currency. Exalts are the only thing that's debatable.

Then there's actually doing it. There's still a lot of RNG and TIME involved in this. You have to run maps, hope you get a harvest, hope you get seeds with the crafts you want. Guess what? This takes a fucking long time. Isn't most of the player base doing it this way? What percentage is discord trading crafts? I bet it's super small.

Now, back to my staff. In order for me to properly craft it, I'd need about 7 exalts worth of currency to craft it with harvest. That's not cheap. and there's still the possibility of it being useless due to a couple non-deterministic rolls, and very possible it's not "mirror" worthy with sub T1 rolls. Yeah, I've seen some great things come out of harvest, but who is it really hurting?

If someone has made a perfect item, good for them. I'm sure it wasn't their fist attemt and spent a ton of exalts to get there. And, if they're selling it, they're probably selling it for a lot, which means it's catering to the 0.1% of the players who can farm the exalts to pay for it. So, the economy of these items is only shared to the elite few. This isn't trickling down to the lower player base. The above average player can only afford the non-mirrored items, and isn't that a good thing? So, who really cares about these perfect items?

Having good harvest crafts is only a good thing. Here's why: it keeps players in the game. You say that people have done everything and maxed out all their gear so they stop playing. Who? 0.1% of the player base? Who gives a shit about that? I bet the same 0.1% were already clearing the game, killing everything T8, getting their 40/40 after a month anyway. At least with harvest, they could strive for min maxing their gear.

Harvest crafting helps everyone else. This means maybe they'll get the better gear to do higher level content and not get frustrated. The average player will stay in the game longer. This means that even if they don't know how to craft good gear, they could have the chance at buying it because there's more high level players making the stuff cause they have a lot of exalts to spend on making it anyway.

Lets not even touch how much SSF people get screwed because of this.

I remember seeing a post that showed the retention fall off of players. This related to why GGG strove for 4 leagues a year. Isn't this going to only hurt retention? I'm only just now getting my head wrapped around this system of crafting and it's very frustrating that you want to get rid of it.