[3.10] Toxic Rain Trickster 30 Mil Shaper DPS (the best one)

No maths and I don't have a TR Trickster myself but from what I've heard, people who played with 2 clusters (scaling some skill effect duration) lost about 40-50% TR DPS.

Sounds like a heavy hit, but still viable I guess.

Some more experienced players might confirm or correct me.

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Maleficent_TR wrote:

Is there anyone can do basic math about how much toxic rain nerfed? Was really looking forward to one but dont want to do if is gutted much, taking 2x, 3x time for sirus phases etc.

The biggest problem here is it's impossible to take into account gear. The main nerf was the duration. It's going to be close to a 1/3 cut in fully ramped DPS, but that's not nearly as bad as it seems, for two reasons. First, if that means conquerors which used to take 4 seconds now take 6, it's not going to make the skill unplayable. Second, the percentage of time you spend at fully ramped DPS (which required 3-4 seconds to reach) is extremely small. In practice, you only ever hit it on bosses like normal elder or drox who just don't move. Sirus teleports around the map, as does the hunter conqueror. Any enemy that wasn't phased (so no pre-loading the ground before engaging) that died in under 4 seconds in 3.10 will still die in the same amount of time in 3.11.

The difference will be the gear. Synthesis +1 implicit bows will be available, and your rares in every slot are going to be MUCH better for the same cost. That means your burst damage will likely be higher at the expense of some of the maximum ramped DPS. I still maintain that I think a highly invested character here will feel better in 3.11 than 3.10. It's quite possible that you can kill Sirus in less time in 3.11 than 3.10 even with only 2/3 the pod duration.

Obviously we'll have to see how the gear part turns out, and I could be overly optimistic.

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Maleficent_TR wrote:

Is there anyone can do basic math about how much toxic rain nerfed? Was really looking forward to one but dont want to do if is gutted much, taking 2x, 3x time for sirus phases etc.

Around 30% less dmg . Maybe just a bit more. It is not a problem for my understanding, i would sugest not to alarm your self too much

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rlauren2 wrote:

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Maleficent_TR wrote:

Is there anyone can do basic math about how much toxic rain nerfed? Was really looking forward to one but dont want to do if is gutted much, taking 2x, 3x time for sirus phases etc.

The biggest problem here is it's impossible to take into account gear. The main nerf was the duration. It's going to be close to a 1/3 cut in fully ramped DPS, but that's not nearly as bad as it seems, for two reasons. First, if that means conquerors which used to take 4 seconds now take 6, it's not going to make the skill unplayable. Second, the percentage of time you spend at fully ramped DPS (which required 3-4 seconds to reach) is extremely small. In practice, you only ever hit it on bosses like normal elder or drox who just don't move. Sirus teleports around the map, as does the hunter conqueror. Any enemy that wasn't phased (so no pre-loading the ground before engaging) that died in under 4 seconds in 3.10 will still die in the same amount of time in 3.11.

The difference will be the gear. Synthesis +1 implicit bows will be available, and your rares in every slot are going to be MUCH better for the same cost. That means your burst damage will likely be higher at the expense of some of the maximum ramped DPS. I still maintain that I think a highly invested character here will feel better in 3.11 than 3.10. It's quite possible that you can kill Sirus in less time in 3.11 than 3.10 even with only 2/3 the pod duration.

Obviously we'll have to see how the gear part turns out, and I could be overly optimistic.

I tried removing some of the duration to replicate what it will be like in 3.11 and Im losing about 45-50% dps.

Not to mention the chaos dot multi nerfs on the tree.

End game will gear with synthesis implicits certainly help balance things out, but I struggle to see it being better than before.

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HorizonSharp wrote:

Not to mention the chaos dot multi nerfs on the tree.

Method to the madness wheel lost 2%, corruption got a change that should actually push boss dps ahead if you put the totems, and everything else is the same, so what nerfs are people on about?

P.S. You can also pick 10% multi nodes on clusters instead of 5% eternal suffering that was "locked" before.

Looks like this build is officially dead then. GG all, onto something new :)

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HorizonSharp wrote:

I tried removing some of the duration to replicate what it will be like in 3.11 and Im losing about 45-50% dps.

Not to mention the chaos dot multi nerfs on the tree.

End game will gear with synthesis implicits certainly help balance things out, but I struggle to see it being better than before.

If you have the 2 cluster setup in 3.10 you can get 3.70 second duration on your TR from 270% inc. duration (20 from ascendancy, 15 tree, 20 malevolence, 240 clusters, -25 swift affliction).

In 3.11, you go down to only 95% increased duration changing nothing (20 ascendancy, 20 tree, 20 malevolence, 60 clusters, -25 swift affliction). You could make this 115% if you use the bow big clusters with Tempered Arrowheads. Either way, that net 3.7s drop to about 2s duration is where you get the 40% DPS loss.

But this loss is only the case at full ramp. If two characters stand next to each other and each start firing, the 3.10 and 3.11 version do the same damage initially, and the 3.10 version only starts doing more damage after standing still and firing continuously for more than 2 seconds. If you need 2 seconds to ramp to 15 mil dps and, starting from nothing, fire for 4 seconds, you will pump out a total of 45 mil damage. If you need 4 seconds to ramp to 30 mil dps and, starting from nothing, fire for 4 seconds, you will pump out a total of 60 mil damage. So we see that cutting max DPS by half due solely to cutting duration doesn't actually convert to losing half your damage in practice.

And, if I'm correct about gear being easier to obtain, it might be the case that you can achieve ~33% more per pod damage, albeit for only half duration. On paper, that will still end up looking like 3.11 being 0.5*1.33 = 66% DPS of 3.10 form, or a 33% loss. However, if we do the same problem as before:

Starting from zero and needing 2 seconds to ramp to 20 mil DPS, firing for 4 seconds = 60 mil total damage done.

Starting from zero and needing 4 seconds to ramp to 30 mil DPS, firing for 4 seconds = 60 mil total damage done.

Now certainly if we extend for anything further than 4 seconds of constant shooting then the 3.10 duration stacker will win out. But my point is just that, in a practical sense, what appeared on paper to be a 33% loss ended up being initially a net gain in damage, and only turns into a loss after a relative eternity of ramp. A loss of 50% of the top line full ramp DPS number purely due to a loss in duration will not feel anything close to a 50% loss in real gameplay. And for most things, where stuff is dying before you even reach the top of your ramp, it won't actually be a net loss at all.

For long bosses that don't move or ones that allow you to shoot out pods before "activating", the DPS loss will be more noticeable. Losing eternal suffering does make it so that we can pick up more utility nodes like brush with death, exposure therapy, eldritch inspiration, flow of life, etc. instead for higher quality of life. Maybe me saying it will be "better" is too optimistic, but I guarantee it won't be as bad as it seems, and the survivability/QoL granted by these other nodes might actually make it feel a bit smoother in the end.

While these nerfs look bad on paper i do tend to agree that the build will largely retain its power with proper gear.

Delirium was my first league and i put an absurd amount of currency into DPS to feel as "powerful" as possible. In the end my damage was downright ridiculous even against end game bosses, but my survivability was a bit on the low side and did not allowed for many mistakes. I will gladly try to make it work again with less damage and more tankiness/life/utility.

And it's not like you needed to ramp up damage duration to wreck everything even on fully juiced T16 maps as every packs died with one click, except on 100% delirious stuff. Seeing ennemies like conquerors move for more than a few seconds hardly mean that the build is not endgame viable anymore.

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rlauren2 wrote:

Now certainly if we extend for anything further than 4 seconds of constant shooting then the 3.10 duration stacker will win out. But my point is just that, in a practical sense, what appeared on paper to be a 33% loss ended up being initially a net gain in damage, and only turns into a loss after a relative eternity of ramp. A loss of 50% of the top line full ramp DPS number purely due to a loss in duration will not feel anything close to a 50% loss in real gameplay. And for most things, where stuff is dying before you even reach the top of your ramp, it won't actually be a net loss at all.

For long bosses that don't move or ones that allow you to shoot out pods before "activating", the DPS loss will be more noticeable. Losing eternal suffering does make it so that we can pick up more utility nodes like brush with death, exposure therapy, eldritch inspiration, flow of life, etc. instead for higher quality of life. Maybe me saying it will be "better" is too optimistic, but I guarantee it won't be as bad as it seems, and the survivability/QoL granted by these other nodes might actually make it feel a bit smoother in the end.

Glad to see you're optimistic, cuz it seems people are in full blown panic. If someone wants to see real nerf, check archmage and all the sources of %increased mana costs. That was harsh. Or how they flat out deleted the cluster node that have melees +1 impale.

But tbh, I'm starting to think if everyone is convinced TR is shit and strolls off to play VD necro or BV assassin then at least cheaper gear for those of us who stick with bow builds, less competition...

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rlauren2 wrote:

Starting from zero and needing 2 seconds to ramp to 20 mil DPS, firing for 4 seconds = 60 mil total damage done.

Starting from zero and needing 4 seconds to ramp to 30 mil DPS, firing for 4 seconds = 60 mil total damage done.

If this were reddit - I'd toss you gold. Fantastic, sensible, and well-thought out post. I'm still excited for TR Trickster - may move to Pathfinder later if I'm having fun. Haven't played a Ranger in ages.