Corona virus

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The_Impeacher wrote:

Currently, being an employee of a non-essential business is essentially being a potential murderer.

Millionaire news anchors and governors telling people to stay home because they don't have to worry about bills could lead mass suicides and starvation like in great depression. Pick your poison.

I'd prefer a more sane response Like SOuth Korea. Business as usual except more social distance, strong hygiene, and isolation of vulnerable and positives.

Sadly we have doctors instead of economists leading this hysteria. But won't last.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Boem wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

...

Im from BE, just look at our death toll and compare it with yours, then consider we have been in lockdown for roughly a week and a half currently.

going from your baseline of 275 deaths currently, that means there are around 32000+- infected people in the UK, if you breach 65000 by most calculations it can no longer be contained and you go into an italy situation.

And as far as i gather you guys have just started implementing some baseline mild rules.

Peace,

-Boem-

its starting to go into full lockdown, all non essential businesses etc have been ordered to shut, schools are shut. but i feel like we didnt do it fast enough, what were doing now we should have been doing 2 weeks ago.

the economic fallout is worrying. essentially the world is on pause, almost everyone will come out the other side and need their jobs and also create the demand for the products those jobs create so things will bounce back to some extent. but with brexit we are unique in that we come out of this into a world that we dont have trade agreements with... my country picked a really great time to be a bunch of isolationist morons.

I was discussing the potential economic fall-out with my mother yesterday and i had to explain to her that if the whole world is going to devaluate its currency by extending massive debt then it wont mater much.

The trouble in the global economy comes when some country's take the hit while others do not, because then relative value against one another shift dramatically.

So if both the euro and the dollar devaluate proportionally then business will return back to normal once the market starts moving again, your value will just be halved across the board so relative value's remain similar.

The problem comes if the market doesn't trust the bounce-back and people stop the market, the circulation of money spikes while the production remains similar.
Then we fall in an unseen before depression.

So again, like most of the last fifty years, china is the potential a-hole in this whole story because they have already turned to exploiting the situation they themselves helped create.
Nothing new under the sun, but potentially disastreous given the current situation.
I would love to see china being removed from the global market right about now, but it's unlikely to happen given what they are producing and whats required.
Were bassicaly seeing a massive parasitical action taking place of wealth from the EU to china all under the guise of help which makes it very easy for politicians to sell it to the people.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Italy not china is responsible for italys problems says an expert by not shutting down airports like Trump did and they even had hug a Chinese day and we all know how Italian "hug" with kisses

Yeah nope.

China held back information on their outbreak and the risk factor for over a month and a half and lied to the WHO and CDC to cover it up as to not result in bad pr for the party.

This means that country's like italy didn't realize the severity of the situation untill it was to late.

Also stop with the infantile characterization of italians.

Country's would have been able to take much more severe counter measures(think sars outbreak) if they had released their data much sooner instead of suppressing it.

And yeah im pretty sure that identity politics would be relevant if they had known a 16% death rate in people above 80 years./s
Don't make me laugh with those dumb arguments, almost as silly as claiming that italy having more older people demonstrates how their life-style and health care system are "lacking".

At least try to steel-man the opposition of your arguments before you post them, because these are to easy to refute to come close to changing people's mind.

Peace,

-Boem-

The reality is that economies are going to tank whether countries ignore the pandemic OR take steps to flatten the curve. So the focus MUST be on not overwhelming health services to save lives. That means closing non-essentials and keeping people physically separated EVERYWHERE.

i request the mods to not close this topic untill the quarantaine is over,
real lifes else will get their heads smashed in due to lack of competitional possibilities.


And we are only 2 days in.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Fed said unemployment could reach 30% in second quarter
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-22/fed-s-bullard-says-u-s-jobless-rate-may-soar-to-30-in-2q

For prospective in the Great Depression unemployment was 25%

You’ll be begging for the days when Coronavirus was your main concern IMO as you can't get transfusions w/o insurance and there is no food to eat. This is the silliest thing I ever seen shutting down whole economy for less than flu season deaths.

My guess is the people will put up with this a maximum of three more weeks then take to the streets demanding return to normal.

I agree, people are already getting sick of this shit, and are going to start demanding normalcy, at all costs.

The ones buying up ammo on the shelves aren't doing so because they fear coronavirus, they're concerned and uncertain about all the other implications from this.

I got my ammo ahead of this. Inherited 1/3rd of my grandfathers collection, I got so many guns now, that I haven't even looked at them all yet, and I had to rent a fucking storage locker for all the guns/accessories/ammo. I don't even know what all I got to be honest, I need to get them appraised.

People are treating this as if it's fucking Ebola, man. If this actually was Ebola going around, even I would be panicking. Because that's some extremely lethal stuff, and a very hard way to die.

Looking more and more like my federal government won't step in to protect normal Canadians from the deniers. We'll be going down the tubes along with the US at this rate.

From 1000 to 2000 cases in 2 days. Likely up to 4000-5000 by Wednesday and into the tens of thousands by next weekend.

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MrSmiley21 wrote:

People are treating this as if it's fucking Ebola, man. If this actually was Ebola going around, even I would be panicking. Because that's some extremely lethal stuff, and a very hard way to die.

If this were Ebola, it would be a non-issue. Ebola is so deadly that it can't spread quick enough because it literally kills itself.

self-isolation is great, but when its FORCED upon you it isn't so great, or even survivable for some.
people keep looking to canada the last few days as being an example of things - why is this? yesterday we had just over 1000 cases nation wide, 2nd largest country in size, pretty low population or about 34m especially for its size yet we're being told to shut everything down. shut it all down, by force of the law.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/feds-will-step-in-with-unified-measures-on-covid-19-if-provinces-hesitate-hajdu/ar-BB11wPx4?OCID=ansmsnnews11

im going to quote something insane in this article

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The federal government does have the power to invoke the Emergencies Act, which would give it extraordinary powers to limit the civil liberties of Canadians.

this gets interesting. who here is canadian? let me educate you.
the reason why canada is being pressured so hard by the world even though our situation is ridiculous (again 1000 out of 34m in the 2nd largest country, thus most spread out population) is because Canada has what is called the Emergencies Act.

the "emergencies act" is essentially a way to turn on martial law and give government extreme measures, powers, and possibilities.
now, as Canadians we do have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. problem is, included in this are two clauses.

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Section 1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the section that confirms that the rights listed in the Charter are guaranteed. The section is also known as the reasonable limits clause or limitations clause, as it legally allows the government to limit an individual's Charter rights. This limitation on rights has been used in the last twenty years to prevent a variety of objectionable conduct such as hate speech (e.g., in R v Keegstra) and obscenity (e.g., in R v Butler).

When the government has limited an individual's right, there is an onus upon the Crown to show, on the balance of probabilities, firstly, that the limitation was prescribed by law namely, that the law is attuned to the values of accessibility and intelligibility; and secondly, that it is justified in a free and democratic society, which means that it must have a justifiable purpose and must be proportional.

this is one way where the government can legally circumvent your rights. another way is the second clause, which is much more extreme....

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Section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is part of the Constitution of Canada. It is commonly known as the notwithstanding clause (or la disposition dérogatoire in French), or as the override power, and it allows Parliament or provincial legislatures to temporarily override certain portions of the Charter

Section 33.

(1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15.

(2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration.

(3) A declaration made under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration.

(4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under subsection (1).

(5) Subsection (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under subsection (4).

so, what are our rights as per section 2 and section 7-15?? great question (which you hopefully asked yourself)

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Section 2: which lists what the Charter calls "fundamental freedoms" namely freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of belief, freedom of expression, freedom of the press and of other media of communication, freedom of peaceful assembly, and freedom of association.

Rights of people in dealing with the justice system and law enforcement are protected, namely:

Section 7: right to life, liberty, and security of the person.
Section 8: freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.
Section 9: freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment.
Section 10: right to legal counsel and the guarantee of habeas corpus.
Section 11: rights in criminal and penal matters such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Section 12: right not to be subject to cruel and unusual punishment.
Section 13: rights against self-incrimination.
Section 14: rights to an interpreter in a court proceeding.

Section 15: equal treatment before and under the law, and equal protection and benefit of the law without discrimination.

so - it is very important to note that even without the emergencies act Canada can at will, justified by way of defined reason, limit your civic liberties including the right to live, the right to council, the right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment and so on.
its also important to note this has already happened in canada constantly by way of the first clause against our freedom of expression and in some extreme cases, freedom of religion.

next, its even MORE important to point out that in the second clause they can for zero reason completely cut off your rights for up to 5 years, subject to renewel

so, how does this tie in with the emergencies act? its quite simple. it is what gives them the "reason" without fear of backlash.

now the emergencies act is what dictates you can be fined/jailed for not adhering to things like "social distancing", if invoked, however many canadians are already in threat of that including my town, my home town etc. even though the emergencies act isn't invoked.
thats because the canadian government has the power to "within reason" temporarily override your civil right to mobility etc anyway, but if they just did that it wouldn't get a very good response.

there is a need for the emergencies act to be invoked in order to give a "legitimate reason" to taking canadians rights away.

i mean fuck, if you read through this thread, most of you already think that this is reasonable!!! that is just beyond incredible, the way i see it.

if you ask me, canada is being pressured to instate this act to be used as an example to the rest of the world for why they also need such acts and clauses, especially the united states.
"oh US of A you need to be more like Canada and be more flexible with your constitution and bill of rights"

sorry, but i say no. i am canadian and i absolutely know what can happen regardless of if it does yet or not. fact is its already written into our law that our rights can go poof poof bye bye so long as they deem it as "reasonable".
if you're on board with that, you're an evil human being. straight up.

another interesting thing about the article i posted at the beginning of this post is this statement.

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Premier Stephen McNeil said Sunday residents are blatantly ignoring the need for social distancing.

"Hundreds gathering on our beaches and in our parks, large groups of people congregating, young people playing street hockey, cars parked everywhere, people disregarding law enforcement," McNeil said. "We are dealing with a deadly virus and this behaviour is unacceptable."

this is absolutely ridiculous. the social distance "rules" is to be 2 meters away from someone. you can get hundreds of people on a beach without anyone being within 2m from each other.
the other thing is, its only being mandated country wide that no gathers of 250+ are to take place. no gathers of 50+ if blah blah (some parameters i can't quite remember). you can play street hockey without 50+ people, fully adhering to their own fucking rules....but no, they don't even want that.

canada doesn't want social distances, they want social isolation. nobody to go outside, nobody to interact with anyone....kinda like....this??

https://nationalpost.com/health/how-taiwan-and-singapore-managed-to-contain-covid-19-while-letting-normal-life-go-on

and if you think this is reasonable and justify it because of "covid-19", you are a fucking madman. no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and i never want to interact with you in my life again

don't let canada's legal situation reach your country

Canada will have to do it to save us from the reality deniers among us.