Crustacean Jung vs Cocaine Hegel

^ shit! forgot safety goggles

Is marx any good? From all the things ive heard about it i boil it down to

- there are two groups, your in the bad one!, fight the system(dont forget to make the system immune to your route after you are in charge)

Isn't it just a mental hijack of discernment?

Somebody give me the 1o1 break down of marx :)

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : maybe i will give him a spin after i finish 1984

"

Boem wrote:

Is marx any good? From all the things ive heard about it i boil it down to

- there are two groups, your in the bad one!, fight the system(dont forget to make the system immune to your route after you are in charge)

Isn't it just a mental hijack of discernment?

Somebody give me the 1o1 break down of marx :)

Nice try Peterson, but we know it's you. You're gonna have to do the reading.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

Is marx any good? From all the things ive heard about it i boil it down to

- there are two groups, your in the bad one!, fight the system(dont forget to make the system immune to your route after you are in charge)

Isn't it just a mental hijack of discernment?

Somebody give me the 1o1 break down of marx :)

Nice try Peterson, but we know it's you. You're gonna have to do the reading.

I gotta work on my sign off skills :(

Peace,

-Boem-

The boudoir centerpiece of a man who knows his way around a vacuum cleaner nozzle

Yes, it's a real doonah cover, from redbubble.

"

Boem wrote:

Is marx any good? From all the things ive heard about it i boil it down to

- there are two groups, your in the bad one!, fight the system(dont forget to make the system immune to your route after you are in charge)

Isn't it just a mental hijack of discernment?

Somebody give me the 1o1 break down of marx :)

If you're curious, Oliver Thorn of PhilosophyTube has a very approchable set of videos on Marx, which I can recommend highly. It's not really a deep dive (there's only so deep you can get into Marx with half an hour of vlogs), but it helps give you an overview, and it may have done Peterson some good.

(Keep in mind that not everything Marx said has held up well. Obviously.)

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

Is marx any good? From all the things ive heard about it i boil it down to

- there are two groups, your in the bad one!, fight the system(dont forget to make the system immune to your route after you are in charge)

Isn't it just a mental hijack of discernment?

Somebody give me the 1o1 break down of marx :)

Nice try Peterson, but we know it's you. You're gonna have to do the reading.

This absolutely made my day. ^_^

^Most philosophers didn't age well so i would expect nothing else from marx.

I think they act more like a wine, you know the vintage and the year and then take a drink and try to imagine the time.
Anything more serious and you end up a radical defending a system that was formulated X years ago which is no longer applicable or has already solved some of the presumptions made.

Maybe a wordsalad is better than a wine, but who will be able to distinguish between the two in a hundred years.

I'll take a look at that vlog this afternoon, cheers budget.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

^Most philosophers didn't age well so i would expect nothing else from marx.

I think they act more like a wine, you know the vintage and the year and then take a drink and try to imagine the time.
Anything more serious and you end up a radical defending a system that was formulated X years ago which is no longer applicable or has already solved some of the presumptions made.

And then there's Hegel, who is like pulling out a vintage of your best 1820 milk. ^_^

^Well the dude lost me at his final video throwing in "patriarchy" and some diversity identity slang.

The video's where ok, but it seems rather ingengious to say things like "you work 4 hours to produce what you need that day and then the next 4 hours make profit for your employer" as if by some magical wand swing you aren't given currency to utilize in the consumer system yourself enabling movement within the system.

The alienation is a fun concept, i contemplated something similar myself on various occations, for example how outraged new-age groups are with hunting or animal suffering while they go and purchase meat in a shop every single day as if that animal didn't require killing.

Currency is a magnificent tool to proliferate responsibility within the system until it reaches "non-consequential" value's among a mass of individuals.
This probably leads to the "morality within capitalism" thought pattern. But when i discuss this with people i always tell them, so imagine we have as a people two million dollars and we can split it 50%/50% to some guy with 160iq and to a guy with 90iq is that moraly justified?

Chances are the guy with the high iq will create things that serve not only himself but the world at large(as evident by the current system) as a consequence of his personal goal.

The system as a whole is the beneficiary of it's most labour intensive and smart people, which means it is moraly justifiable to funnel the most resources to those people while providing a sustainable and healthy life for regular people.

Of course if we start going all diversity qouta's and undermining the selection process for those smart and labour intensive people then that ship leaves the harbor and we end up in a corruption incentivized civilization, since human self interest will compete with civilization as a whole.

Peace,

-Boem-

Ah, Double Penetration strikes again, ha. More and more I understand why you like jokes about the business end of things, Charan.

Well, here we are.

So much ground to cover, on some intersecting topics.

"

鬼殺し wrote:

The GF has been designing her redbubble stuff pretty hardcore lately -- abstracted Sailor Moon and Fate/Stay Night motifs applied to fabric, notebook covers, mugs, etc. They're selling quite well, and they keep her fulfilled and passionate. Thankfully the rent's paid so we can afford to do these things. Or, in my case, to not. Please don't mistake my ennui for anything significant. It's a substitute for real problems. I'm distinctly aware of that...that it adds to the ennui is just one more little irony.

What's her handle on there? PM me if you prefer to send it that way. Every now and again we'll do a Redbubble shop, mostly for stickers, sometimes t-shirts too. There's a lot of crap on there but some great stuff, and pop culture spins can be fun.

Oh sure, on you not being in serious crisis. I can be old-fashioned and excessively polite, hang on I need to step out just hold that thought --! and my response could sound like I was seriously concerned overly involved. It's not as though one of the draws of this medium is that it stands outside real time, and of course you're fine to post that and have it sit unremarked. You're not the sort to bleed all over the forums, and we do exchange pms from time to time, so there's that too.

When I got into work, super wasn't on as there was a crisis underway that had everyone absorbed for the afternoon; it added to the wry perspective-taking. Some of the shit people have been through, some of them overseas, some here, with no advantage to cushion them in a messed up system, I've mentioned it before, it's both humbling and connecting, grounding. What helped me recover was getting my head out of my ass, as much as I can, through education and taking refuge from other people I've learned that the view up in there is wondrous grand, so exquisitely sensitive.

Maybe that's where Plato's cave is, all this time.

Or maybe I just like business end matters too, as a fellow old fart. Too laboured, that. Ah well.

Yet, some of that sensitivity is merited, and real. It's what we do with it that counts, not how entitled we are to feel the weight of suffering.

Society, we live in a society, is bonkers. How does it even function I ask sometimes, all these murderous chimpanzees strolling about paying for salads and driving around buying things and watching game of thrones, pressing buttons, thinking of unspeakable acts and smiling at those who we need to to manage the day, glimmers of humanity rising up, swept away, meanwhile in Bangladesh... while maybe aliens are out there tuned in to our frequency and dying in waves from the cosmic screeching of however many billions of us there are, and the animals other than humans.

Maybe they are huffing it, and composing beautiful music.

Meanwhile, there are mossy glades and unplugging, kind acts and poetry, humble meals with loved ones, kisses and kittens, and how much is self-inflicted taking too much in, media oversaturation and hype?

I remember you talked about seeing someone for some counselling a few weeks back, and I suggested existential psychology/psychiatry might appeal to you. I do urge you to consider it, for some private and professional support for the very real human questions you are wrestling with.

As for what we might do now, well, a small oasis of sitting here and having a drink and a yarn. ANZAC eve, seems apt. You know the powers that be are going to be fining anyone around 50k caught selling ANZAC biscuits that don't conform to the recipe? Pfff.

A stoma is not nothing, fucksakes. Your physical challenges must be wearing, despite all the first rate care you are so incredibly fortunate to get. Cartesian duality is positively medieval, yet it will take decades more before we come close to the other side of that crazy conception.

We have articles like Post-traumatic stress disorder is a systemic illness, not a mental disorder: Is Cartesian dualism dead? yet rather than ingrain unscientific diagnostic criteria (the entire DSM), it would be great to head towards diagnosing and treating physical illness components that cause emotional and mental distress, such as gut flora imbalance, or chronic physical pain, while allowing for other explanations of experiences that don't fit a disease model to be reconciled concurrently.

Hard to go into that too much without saying here read this this and this. It's neat that because there was this crisis on today that everyone else was managing, I got to hole up and read an interesting email attachment for a couple of hours that ties in with the Lacornians and the unscientific minefield that is modern mainstream psychology/psychiatry. Mindfreedom.org. There's a lot in there, don't expect you to read it at all. Backs up what I'm saying, is all -

Psychoanalysts are a rare breed these days as most of them just dispense medication, and do no talking therapy at all. Freud's a revered figure, and still taught in all courses yet with heavy disclaimers about how unscientific he is. I like to read that as instinct, or an exit clause that maybe, just maybe, all this DSM confidence we know it's hocus-pocus. It's not, of course, the Freud inclusion just adds some historical cred to an infantile field.

He was a lot of things, but definitely inspired and creative. Cocaine, dude.

I love though the possibility that pure, eccentric psychoanalysts will have this meeting of minds with mad people and do some really great work together, outside the medical model. Maybe on field trips.
'Treatment' is far more traumatic than the experience that leads to it, in many cases, for sure. The visions with pattern recognition turned up to 11, man.

I'm coming back to you, never fear -

Yes, that's what we have currently, diagnosis and mental health plan, and it works better than nothing yet the idea that treating individuals and not healing the environment that produces those levels of distress - not even really saying yeah this shit is messed up - is doomed to not be effective long term.

I suspect the real healing balm is just talking with people and being around others in a safe enough place, exercise, purpose, vocation, belonging.

There are no easy answers. Cue why so many of us love apocalyptic movies. Hard reset.

Ennui.

I wonder that images seared into our brains from far away places, of people we don't know, or relate to, that we can't reconcile with where we are right now, really fuck with our ability to deal with our own bullshit. Like that photo of the tiny dying frog-bellied kid face down in the dirt with the looming vulture, remember that? Daily, dozens of terrible images we can call on, I imagine you thought of more when I mentioned that one, of accounts of atrocity any armchair student of history knows.

Why not deal with our bullshit, with compassion, and a sense of proportion, and then do something constructive with it?

I say write your damn book, or go volunteer at a soup kitchen, or do both. Or I'll buy you a bloody lobster doonah cover and mail it up there. Go get some existential counselling, scream into the void and write because why not? Nothing matters, of course it doesn't yet everything is connected so you're kind of a slack strand just moping about, and what's the fun in that?

That snarky article asks a valid question about the people attending that debate.

"

The biggest thing I took from Peterson, though, is that this guy is emo as hell. For Peterson, human suffering is not a product of society or economics. No, it is our inherited state of being. We are born into it; to be human is to constantly be warring with the evil that resides within us all and the pain that exists outside of us. Again and again he brought up the evil we must overcome. He continually reiterated a vision of life as a slog of sadness and misery. It was all very My Chemical Romance, I would not be surprised if he had a “Life Is Pain” tattoo somewhere.

Beyond everything, I think it is this Bert McCracken-approved theory of life that draws people to Peterson—why he has become the bard of the reactionary elite. If you are one of the privileged, Peterson is here to protect your glorious suffering from any agitators that would question it. He values your pain, it is as valid as anybody else’s. For Peterson, the only political struggle that matters is against your own personal demons. This view of life flattens everything and scrubs out injustice. Oppressor or oppressed, poor or rich; these are meaningless categories. All that matters is your reckoning with your beautiful, mythic suffering. It’s the most important thing, certainly more important than asking if you are part of the problem.

Couldn't agree more, and yet ...

Some people really are fucked up and abused in gilded cages. Maybe not Peterson's groupies, in the main.

I think the whole privilege doesn't have a right to weigh in and contribute is valid to a point, yet paralyses some people from doing anything at all other than feeling unworthy and weak. Conveniently so. Sells a lot of products, whole Amazon warehouses of self-help books. What do people do when they feel that way? Buy doonahs and drink wine? Rant on reddit? Both? Grow up? Die?

How to escape and how to live beyond that small world of fakeness? Now that might be a robust, useful narrative.

That thread about Ayn Rand was not beneath me, but thanks for saying so.
Your account of academic gatherings made me chuckle. There was a laboratory invite-only group I was part of for a time during my Psych undergrad (haha yes I really ought to have taken something more practical but that's what was on offer and I wanted to understand). I was told that my essay on an exam got me there, because it was sent to the professor for cross marking as it was so abysmally graded, but she saw in them some kind of insight that made her regrade me super high. That really set the tone for my contributions, and never quite fitting in, was all so odd. I didn't enjoy it as much as could have, actually it was really awkward as I lacked the confidence, words and outlook to really engage, but that's perspective and further learning for you.

You said,
They just all turn up to these free-for-alls and fight around each other. It's exhausting most of the time because you're just there to make sure your paper goes off without a hitch and to be prepared for curveballs in the question time. I didn't talk my stuff 'at' anyone otherwise, but good fucking god was I ever talked at the whole damn weekend.

It's as though they could do with someone skilled in the finer arts of hosting, and inducting rough company into the social graces.

Dead set, introverted people tend to take too much on board with social awkwardness. A good host and social facilitator whacks the extravert moles down as needed and coaxes the quiet bunnies out, in turn, warmly, and with wit.

Possibly with some nice tea and opium.

In my Georgian period drawing room fantasy, anyway.

I so hope that French fellow is at the la-corn society meeting.
Sounds like I'm going to be disappointed in their ability to forge a new psychiatry with mad people. Language is going to be an iSS-yew, non?

Does lead to thoughts of low self-esteem. Oh there was a piece on ... on being too aware of others' work, that I posted a while back. Of ... damn I'll post this and see if I can dig it up. I have a hunch it was relevant, and might give you some food for thought.

Self-esteem's a bitch. So hard to calibrate when you don't really value most people's opinion, and live mostly internally. Most of the raise your self-esteem advice out there is complete bollocks and avoids the obvious catch -22 issue of having enough self-esteem and naivete to give a shit or blind faith about doing any of the suggested exercises, with them being uneccessary if you do have enough self-esteem. And, most of the pop psych lists on how to raise it are inherently selfish/ self-focused, which sensitive types are already acutely aware of.

This one, top of the list, made me laugh on a site I just googled:
Get sober. Get help through 12-step groups to stop self-destructive behaviors. Addictions block learning and drag down our mood. Identify them and replace them with self-care.
AA has an 8% success rate and is completely anti-science. Sure it works for some, but 8%?

So, help other people, many people will say that helps raise self-esteem. Your killing bots strategy might be ok for a time but perhaps get thee to the proverbial soup kitchen and ladle.

If I was a therapist, or even having a proper, actual conversation, I wouldn't be telling you what to to do, like this, taling about myself, regaling and making a show if it all, far from it... Advice, psh. This isn't advice, or anything, it's a longass forum post with a sincere heart, as a friend of sorts, more one when I read your goddamn book and honestly if I spent the time this evening doing that and giving you feedback it would have helped a whole lot more. Right?

We're self-indulgent shits, and there's nothing for it but to admit it, do some good to assuage the worst of the self-loathing, and ramble on with whoever is bloody-minded or similar enough to hang in this far with us in writing where the least harm might be done for the most enjoyment, which in your case might be very few people, but I will play ten hours straight of t 13+ maps wearing a goddamn diaper if you would actually want any but the wild-eyed idiotic few to arrive with you at the end of all the exploration and know the place for the first time.

I'd end there, but verbal diarrhea compels me to say

Bull pens in cop shows are probably a bit like that in real life, but not so well-orchestrated. I imagine there's more people tuning out with headphones on, more formless noise, less ordered decoration, and more stinky tuna and wet uniform miasma.

Cheers mate,

I'll see about that piece --