Can Labyrinth be reworked so it's not game endingly bad?

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Xeledon2132 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

I bet many of the people QQing about lab would QQ for any other way as long as it is equally challenging and can't be completely bought straigth away.

Maybe. But this is the same "many" as in many people dislike the Lab. We don't know the ration of those players in the playerbase.

If they did offer an alternative it would certainly look as though Fruz was right.
There will always be complaints about content that you feel forced to do. I'd still bet that the complaints wouldn't come from the same people complaining about Lab now.
Not that I can't imagine them offering an alternative that I'd complain about. ;)

If you "gate" some part of the character progression with something that isn't completely trivial, there will be complaints imho ( there will be complaints whatever happens alright, but I mean more like ... some people being vocal or several/many threads about it around here for example ).
That's of course my opinion.
I think that if Izaro was 'zergable' like the rest of the content during the storyline for example, there would be less complaints, significantly less.

There would still be many complaints from people who just don't like traps to begin with of course .... unless maybe you nerf the trap damage to ~1/3 and and nerf the amount of reduced movement speed ( spike would not stop people completely for example ), then a lot of those complaints would imho vanish.

My point is : yes, it's not just about difficulty, but it's definitely tied to it for the most part imo.

There we go again, complaining because it is hard so the people who don't complain about it can feel superior. Very sleazy.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

There we go again, complaining because it is hard so the people who don't complain about it can feel superior. Very sleazy.

From all the past postings, I don't think it's about difficulty. Both sides seem to agree it isn't that difficult overall. Harder for some builds than others, but that can be attributed to many areas of this game, so it cancels out.

It all boils down to like and dislike. Some people feel they should get special treatment with regards to the lab ie...able to skip it, simply because they don't like the mechanics, but are not willing to apply that same logic across the board.

This will be a never ending debate because it's basis is subjective.

As far as this post is concerned, its an example of chipping. The anti lab people will try and chip away at the lab, doing their best to earn concessions. "We will be happy, or less unhappy if you just give us X". The more concessions GGG hands them , the less the lab stays true to the devs vision, and the closer they get to their goal of not having to run it, and still get rewards.

The reason why this debate is still going is apparent to anyone who reads these boards. Even if GGG deleted the lab entirely the debate would still rage on. The debate would simply shift to who was right and wrong, and who had to pay what price for losing the debate.

I hope GGG sticks to their guns on this. Should they give in entirely, then this crusade ends, and another springs up to take it's place. Sure, some concessions were given, but that is the way of things when you truly respect player opinion and feedback. The concessions they gave did not fundamentally change the lab, so were not really contested. Perfect balance.

Fundamentally change the lab, because the mob requires it, and you take the power of creation away from the artists and engineers, and place it in the hands of a mob who is only interested in destroying any piece of art or engineering they do not like.

So GGG. Stay strong, and fight for your art, your vision. Let the mob wallow in the cesspool of vitriol they have created for themselves. "Change it because I don't like it" has no place in a creative universe.

I hate the lab but I wont hate it as much if traps could be skipped all together. I just want ascendancy points and having to play some clunky platformer minigame with click-to-move to get them sucks ass

I don't mind having a discussion on whether or not the Lab is good or bad, it's interesting. However, I find that most people being against the Lab aren't against the Lab itself, but are rather the kind of people who want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

When I defend the Lab in threads like these, I don't do it because I think it's a masterpiece, I do it because it is one of the few things left of the age old gaming complexity era and I'd like to preserve that for us old fags that can remember these days.

I'd be fine if they changed the Lab, just as long as an equally hard/complex/tedious/RNG/whatever you can think of mechanic takes it place to stop you from getting you Ascendancy points for free. Honestly, I feel this entire discussion would shift on scale 1:1 to that new mechanic and we'd be no further.

This proposed change undermines a core principle that I value greatly in gaming. That's why I'm against the "Lab haters", and no, not personally. TD and me can see eye to eye perfectly fine. I like turtles AND doves, see? I'd have doves at my wedding if I can get away with it. It'll be huge. It's true. Wait, this isn't twitter?

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Fruz wrote:

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demon9675 wrote:

We need to have to work for our ascendancy points. But lab need not be the only method of getting them.

I bet many of the people QQing about lab would QQ for any other way as long as it is equally challenging and can't be completely bought straigth away.

Maybe -but in its general form this is known as the slippery slope fallacy. Whenever something is brought up that would lessen the grind regarding PoE, someone usually brings it up.

However, I don't think any requirement of doing content once or twice can be considered unreasonable even if some players do not like said content. That is why keeping ascendancy points tied to killing Izaro isn't problematic to me. Actually I find it more problematic that to acquire enchants you must grind lab, because it means one has to do unwanted content over and over again to enhance their gear. But I know SSF players are supposedly pariah so the answer for any suggestions would be to go play trade leagues and trade for the enchants you want.

It's funny how often times many suggestions here are angrily turned down, exactly because executing them would make the game less tedious. PoE is proudly a tedious game, so that terrible drops are considered to be part of the deal. Like a few days ago I actually chuckled quietly as I realized having 75 chayula splinters after spending over a year playing standard. It was so bad I couldn't do anything but laugh. That is how bad certain drops are: you are supposed to play for years to experience gated content just once in this starving game. And then, vice versa, there is content you are supposed to grind for hundreds -sorry, thousands of times- to get certain drops, or for that matter, gear enchants.

make all labs the length of cruel lab

Remove Izaros swooosh attack...that one where he turns around, swings the blade and fires a swoosh straight trough the room.

The hit box of that thing is bullshit.

And please remove the whole Lab. Its never been fun for me crawling trough shitty maps and the fight itself is somewhat nice ...if it wasnt for this stomping facerolling swoosh, it scales so ridiculous and deals so much dmg...

in general I. H A T E damage spikes which throw you off your horse all of sudden. someone might say "challenge bruh challenge" but I say shut your mouth this is bad gameplay, this is the shit the syndicat is doing and its just frustrating.

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Xtorma wrote:

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It all boils down to like and dislike. Some people feel they should get special treatment with regards to the lab ie...able to skip it, simply because they don't like the mechanics, but are not willing to apply that same logic across the board.
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The like and dislike statement is exactly right. The rest really isn't true though. I don't remember anyone saying that they want to be able to just skip the lab or get special treatment. We are just saying that the lab is not fun and should be fixed somehow.

The big lab thread, SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas] has over 2 dozen suggestions of ways that GGG could be satisfactorily resolved, in my opinion, and none of them involve special treatment or being able to "skip it". If it was my list I would add just getting rid of ascendancy points altogether as another option. The closest thing to skipping it in there is assigning ascendancy points as certain character levels have been achieved if they haven't already been earned in the lab.

Nobody is asking for free anything. This is the Feedback and Suggestions forum and we're just giving feedback and suggestions. It's fine to make comments on those feedback and suggestions but it really doesn't make sense to attack people for giving feedback and suggestions here.

Don't take the attack people giving feedback comment personally Xtorma, that was directed more against some others here in this thread.

Regarding the idea about unwilling to grant others the right to skip content, that is completely bogus and really doesn't make sense. We are not here to decide what GGG is going to do. Any discussion about you granting us permission to get lab fixed only if we grant you permission to get something else fixed is frankly ridiculously irrelevant and completely detached from reality.

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AldarisGrave wrote:

Don't know if anyone else would agree but losing 30 minutes of gameplay while two of the boss fight phases in due to an broken hit box on an environmental hazard isn't fun, or rewarding...rather it's fun killing. So far i've only had one character, my arc witch get past the first lab and it's getting to the point where i just want to uninstall the game.

Could we at least be able to teleport back in at the zone after the last boss phase we just fought?

It's the stupid traps I hate. The boss fights I don't mind so much.