SSF Uber Lab Trials - Pointless RNG?

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Turtledove wrote:

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Synopse wrote:

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Chalace2 wrote:

Another 'I play SSF, so re-make the entire game to suit my special snowflake needs' post.

Nothing to see here.

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I've always found all of the trials in the first 1/2 days, seems easy enough to me. Failing that there is a prophecy to help you too, that's common enough.

Another 'I don't have you problem, so must be doing it wrong reply.'

Nothing to see here.

This post may contain sarcasm.

Along the same lines,

Another person giving feedback and suggestions in the Feedback and Suggestions forum because they want the entire game re-make into suiting their special snowflake needs post. How dare they abuse the Feedback and Suggestions forum by giving feedback and suggestions. Everyone should know that it is not allowed to give feedback and suggestions, especially not in the Feedback and Suggestions forum. How can they be so ridiculous?

Nothing to see here.

Touche.

Now we are cought in an endless loop, on how dare one to give feedback to a feedback post in the feedback forum.

Thanks for making my day. :)

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grepman wrote:

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synopse wrote:

But there are games that don't need randomness and yet have no winning strategie. Chess is a very prominent example, but of course, not necessariliy everyones cup of tea.

This makes no sense, chess is solvable by computers and thus has winning strategy. Even poker, which has rng due to cards, has theoretical game optimal strategy

You are now venturing into territory when you are plain stating wrong things

You better look up what a winning-strategy is. It doesn't mean that it is solvable by computers nor is every optimal strategy a winning-strategy. It means that you always win, no matter what your opponent does. No offence taken though.
After sorting this out, maybe other things I said make more sense to you?

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grepman wrote:

I never said games without rng can't be popular. I said once you find a solution, a puzzle becomes far less interesting. And eventually it becomes routine.
Once you know the algorithm,the only thing you can do to keep yourself engaged with rubic's cube is to try to train your fingers/hand to do it faster.

I see your point, and is pretty close to mine. Every with every repetition something may become less interesting. This is because our brain need new input. RNG cannot prevent these repetitions but it can help to trick our brain that there is actually something new happening. But repetitions are not necessarily bad. Actually, many people do them to repeat the experience. Have you ever seen a movie twice, or read a book for a second time?

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grepman wrote:

No it can create content too, go back to my darkest dungeon example
By presenting unpredictable situations which you couldn't have accounted for, you are presented with tree paths that you would've never hit when traversing all possible combinations if you chose a winning strategy. As such, you have created a problem which resulted from rng

Yes, I understand your point, and I agree that such algoriths can be used for pattern generation like creating map layouts. Yet, these algorithms doesn't add any real content. They create a permutation of initially created content (by a human). That is the reason why every randomly created map contains the same graphical elements. Even if the layout is different everytime, the graphics are all the same, the mobs are all the same, over and over again.
This is cased by the limitation of algorithm not being able to be creative like humans. They need a pattern to follow (even the learning algorithms which can learn and repoduce patterns already existing). That is why RNG can only strech the content and (at current state of the art) requires human input (including programing, graphical design, story writing, scripting,...). As a programer you should know things like this. This is the reason why your job is pretty save in a time of self-learning algorithms.

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grepman wrote:

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synopse wrote:

Did you know that failure creates a much stronger emotion than success? People claim that it is fun to overcome the frustation in failure, but it is the frustation that keep them buzzy first and success is just a short releave, after which the frustating part is continued.

Sure, for me it's like that.i don't mind failing rng rolls, but many people playing poe certainly do. Rng is fair, and they want pity timers and other bullshit like that.

Then you must be a super human. :)
I can agree that RNG can be considered somewhat "fair". The guy who designs the odds is putting the portion of unfairnes anyway.
I definitely agree that timers are cancer in any game.

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grepman wrote:

ggg is the only company to keep making new content for an arpg game that is 5 years old. Content isn't made out of rubber. There is only so much content they can do in 3 months period. They want to retain nolifers because they keep the game relevant on streams. Not sure what you want them to do.

I fully agree that GGG is doing a better job on adding real content to the game. Maybe I struggle with the fact that GGG tries to cater both no-lifers and the occasional gamer. I think that both groups would like more awesome content, and the heavy grind is added to keep the no-lifer bussy.
So what do I want GGG to do: First of all keeping up the good work. :) But than also thinking about concepts that allow all players to play the real content. Leave the repitions for the no-lifers and those who wnat to repeat the experience.
I really liked playing the campaign multiple times. The first time on normal for the story, the second time on cruel for understanding the game, and the thrid time on merciless for mastering the game. That was a good design, till GGG decides to have an infinite loop of leagues...erm, extensions every 3 month. People started to realize that the whole thing is getting to repetitive.

So, if I had one wish in this game, I would ask for more story content added every extension instead of adding ways to grind the same things.

Thanks for the good discusion so far! A very pleasant talk.

Edit: Fixed the quotes. (Please, GGG, give us better tools to quote. :) )

I consider SSF mode to be an artificial restriction put on a player for no reason as if you don't want to trade and don't want to party with others all the time, nothing stops you from doing that in regular league....

that said

SSF Uber Lab trials should have clear path of progression as it is in story line. GGG adds some "helpful" elements into the game - Zana quests for example as the most recent addition - that give player clearer path what to do next without too much of a hand holding.

Why not appoint some of the NPCs as "Lab master" who will give out the quest. Right now the quests are obtained upon clicking some stone.
Lets say - keep the stone. What about spawning the stone at the end of first map - and then add "quests" with lab trials onto specific map, either one at the time or just spread them across the Tiers. 75 is like T8? So put them up to T8 maps and it will have clear "way" how to get them.

Someone could say it's extending the lore and story telling, as in certain areas, PoE feel like game without soul.