SSF Uber Lab Trials - Pointless RNG?

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Synopse wrote:

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vio wrote:

name me a game element that's exciting and keeps you playing all night and it's not random?

Here are some examples: Existing and rich content going beyond repetiveness, challenging content like complex puzzels, game mechanics requiring skill. Litterly every game not using grind but content to create a gaming experience.
RNG is the cheep and easy way to pretend that there is actually content that you can have fun with for a long time. It is just streching what you could have done in a few hours if there was not a single RNG gate involved.

Edit: Missed the most obvious one, i.e. social interaction.

boss fights may have certains patterns but in general the sequence of scripts is randomised.

same for puzzles.

They actually stealth improved SSF trials this league, with the zana changes. They added "complete the lab trial" as a zana mission type, and of course now you get to choose which zana mission you do. So if you're still missing a trial, you pick complete the lab trial for all your zana missions.

err

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UlfgardLeo wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Please keep in mind that SSF is not the basis for balance.

RNG has both edges, and sometimes in SSF ... well, you're on the 'wrong' one.

GGG has shown that they know the concept of variance reduction, e.g. the evasion mechanic which tries to be as close as possible to the expectation at all times.


Here, a simple solution:[...]

You say solution .... but did they say that there was an actual problem ?
If they want to encourage people to communcate/trade/share things, in our case the trials ... why should they simply it ?

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

Nope, it's you who's misunderstood SSF. PoE is literally built on the concept of trading, so playing without trading is actually the most non-legit game mode there is.

Exactly.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

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Synopse wrote:

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vio wrote:

name me a game element that's exciting and keeps you playing all night and it's not random?

Here are some examples: Existing and rich content going beyond repetiveness, challenging content like complex puzzels, game mechanics requiring skill. Litterly every game not using grind but content to create a gaming experience.

Edit: Missed the most obvious one, i.e. social interaction.

You just named a bunch of things that PoE doesn't have. Now the question is... why are you here and not in some game that has these features?

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Ygidua wrote:

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

Solution: don't play the more challenging game mode ;)

SSF is the only legit way to play this game. In trade league, you have people scouting maps, using RMT and co. Not everyone wants to compete with that, that´s why they choose SSF.

Sadly, GGG has misunderstood SSF completely. The drop rates and portals, are still based on the non legit gamemode.

Nope, it's you who's misunderstood SSF. PoE is literally built on the concept of trading, so playing without trading is actually the most non-legit game mode there is.

Isn't it a bit ignorant to just claim that the way you play the game is the correct one? I understand both of your points but PoE is more than how you are playing it. Because there are other ways to play it, none of these ways is the wrong way, since it is a game to have fun with. SSF is a very different experience, and I am happy GGG added it to the game. For me trade is just a big spoiler for looting stuff myself, but I understand that others don't want to miss it. As GGG states that trade is important, so there must be a backdrawn not using it. Not a big deal for me.

And to answere your question, why I am still here: Because I see more than Grind and RNG-gating in this game...and I know many others do either. Yet, I have to admit that there is much room for improvement, and my hopes are with GGG's high ambitions to create interesting settings where to put the grind in.

Nonetheless, this is beside the point, because I answered the question of vio, if there are any other things than RNG that can keep you bussy in games. The answers is: Yes, there are and even PoE has some ambition (if you compare it with other ARPG). Yet, GGG stick with RNG (like all in ARPG genre), because it is economical optimal, since the ARGP-community eats grind with the large spoon.

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magicrectangle wrote:

They actually stealth improved SSF trials this league, with the zana changes. They added "complete the lab trial" as a zana mission type, and of course now you get to choose which zana mission you do. So if you're still missing a trial, you pick complete the lab trial for all your zana missions.

Thanks for pointing this out. I missed it totally (in this discussion). GGG created a new way to have trials in maps more reliably. Providing multiple options to do the same thing to ease the monotony of grind is a very promissing direction.

I don't play SSF. I consider it "cheating" to use /global 820 to get the trials. The completion of the 6 end game trials is EXTREMELY inconsistent. It can be very frustrating to be playing a character approaching level 90 and not being able to complete the character's ascendancy points. GGG needs to make getting the 6 end game trials much more consistent and predictable. Almost always get all 6 by level 77 or 87 or anything in between at GGG's discretion. If we weren't expecting it before level 87 because GGG has decided that is the best for their game then fine. It needs to be fixed so that getting those 6 end game trials is more predictable.

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Synopse wrote:

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vio wrote:

name me a game element that's exciting and keeps you playing all night and it's not random?

Here are some examples: Existing and rich content going beyond repetiveness, challenging content like complex puzzels, game mechanics requiring skill. Litterly every game not using grind but content to create a gaming experience.

the issue with even complex puzzles, is that once you find a solution (remember, NP-hard problems cannot be solved to find ALL solutions in polynomial time, but its not hard to construct an algorithm to find at least one solution), then you've solved the puzzle and can use the same solution all the time. this becomes detrimental and uninteresting because in any situation you could throw the solution and 'win'.

take darkest dungeon, its possible to find bulletproof combos and strategy and blast through dungeons without fearing anything, if it weren't for RNG. which defeats the whole mantra of DD where dungeons should be scary, unpredictable and demoralizing and the whole point of DD is when shit does NOT go according to the plan. otherwise it becomes a 'find one solution, cruise through game' puzzle and game ends when you solve a puzzle.

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RNG is the cheep and easy way to pretend that there is actually content that you can have fun with for a long time. It is just streching what you could have done in a few hours if there was not a single RNG gate involved.

RNG obviously stretches content, but it is necessary in arpg games that can produce content at much lower rate than the fanbase can consume it. throttling the rate at which the content is consumed allows people to stay in the game longer without production of newer content.

it also, going back to my first point, provides situations that are unpredictable resulting in very cool deaths, rare loot drops, etc etc. by making things or content less accessible, you increase the value of things or content, and excitement associated with it.

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Tmpp wrote:

and most of us SSF players will never find all 6.

Technically impossible. Speaking personally. Casual. SSF for life.

&

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magicrectangle wrote:

They actually stealth improved SSF trials this league, with the zana changes. They added "complete the lab trial" as a zana mission type, and of course now you get to choose which zana mission you do. So if you're still missing a trial, you pick complete the lab trial for all your zana missions.

Agree. Same experience.

&

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Turtledove wrote:

The completion of the 6 end game trials is EXTREMELY inconsistent.

"pure RNG"*, the middle name of Path of Exile. Also, POE is not your mass-consumer ARPG.

* Beaclast 23

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grepman wrote:

the issue with even complex puzzles, is that once you find a solution (remember, NP-hard problems cannot be solved to find ALL solutions in polynomial time, but its not hard to construct an algorithm to find at least one solution), then you've solved the puzzle and can use the same solution all the time. this becomes detrimental and uninteresting because in any situation you could throw the solution and 'win'.

You assume that there always is a wining-strategie, which is not necessarily the case. However, you are right that randomness is very effective to prevent winning strategies. But there are games that don't need randomness and yet have no winning strategie. Chess is a very prominent example, but of course, not necessariliy everyones cup of tea.

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grepman wrote:

take darkest dungeon, its possible to find bulletproof combos and strategy and blast through dungeons without fearing anything, if it weren't for RNG. which defeats the whole mantra of DD where dungeons should be scary, unpredictable and demoralizing and the whole point of DD is when shit does NOT go according to the plan. otherwise it becomes a 'find one solution, cruise through game' puzzle and game ends when you solve a puzzle.

A good example how a winning strategie changes the emotional element of a game. Do you know the rubix cube? It has been very popular for a long time, yet it has an easy to learn winning strategy. A totally different game, with little to non unexpected elements.
The core feature of RNG is create an excitement from unexpected results. It is the same effect that keeps people playing slot machines. You never know what will by the result, if you pull the leaver. ARPG are of course more complex, but the more you have to grind due to RNG, the more it is like a slot machine. This is very simplified of course, but I will come back to this.

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grepman wrote:

RNG obviously stretches content, but it is necessary in arpg games that can produce content at much lower rate than the fanbase can consume it. throttling the rate at which the content is consumed allows people to stay in the game longer without production of newer content.

Agreed, but it should not the only thing, to make a difference from that slot machine mentioned. This is part of the reasoning, why I call it the cheep and easy way. RNG can only stratch content, it will never create content. Content is created by an act of creatity, not by flipping a coin.

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grepman wrote:

it also, going back to my first point, provides situations that are unpredictable resulting in very cool deaths, rare loot drops, etc etc. by making things or content less accessible, you increase the value of things or content, and excitement associated with it.

Yes, this is the emotional element of RNG. Yet, it is the same effect which slot machines create in our brains. Did you know that failure creates a much stronger emotion than success? People claim that it is fun to overcome the frustation in failure, but it is the frustation that keep them buzzy first and success is just a short releave, after which the frustating part is continued.

This all is connected to RNG, because we ususally can't influence it and never know the out come. Yet, RNG itself is not very satisfying element. There must be a resonable chance to fail, which is why games with winning strategies are getting boring to people looking for this feeling of frustation.
I don't think that ARPG should be anything different from using RNG to create excitement due to randomly created success and failure. Indeed RNG is on of the core feature if not THE core feature.

Yet, I think that too much RNG is not a good game design. RNG must be in ballance with substancial content.
The basic idea is to provide enough content to justify the existing amount of RNG-based grinding.

My impression is that GGG has at least a rough understanding on how this ballance have to look like. Yet, there is a tendency to add much more RNG than new content. This is probably the case, because new content requires much more effort than a new RNG gate. This is why I think that RNG is the cheep and easy way, because content is the more expensive and complex one. For me, a good ARPG needs both of it. Otherwise we just can go and play a slot machine.
This is of course only my opioning.