[3.6] Tahreyn's 83/83 Block Herald of Agony Gladiator - Über Elder Viable

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pathofexile003 wrote:

I think this build might win the award for the cheapest Uber Elder viable build out there. Can be done on a 5L (I was using Minion Speed which doesn't do anything for this fight), no expensive Watcher's Eyes, no level 21 gems, no uber enchant or expensive flasks and the rest of the items worth practically nothing (I didn't even use the maim from the 2soc Tombfist so that's unnecessary too). Based on all this, I think the Crawler needs a nerf but don't tell GGG that ;)

Unfortunally I do believe that GGG is quite aware of it :( As long as they don't totally gut it it'll still be strong though, but GGG isn't really known for doing small nerfs >_<

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Gryphenprey wrote:

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Herald_of_Agony

We do have the Minion's base damage (see above)

So the the thing with Empower level 4 that I think trips people up is that it effects the BASE damage.

It gives 39% more base damage. This is multiplicative with Increased and "More" Multipliers.

So like, with level 20 gems in Lioneye's Vision you get:

206% More damage from multipliers With level 4 Empower with 101 base DMG per Virulence, level 24 HoAg

236% More Damage with Maim, 72.5 base DMG per Virulence with level 21 HoAg
Maim also makes the enemies take 14% Increased physical damage, which is another MORE multiplier. 60% of HoAg is physical, 40% Chaos

So, let's assume 40 stacks, not factoring in the increased minion damage from the skill and tree:

Empower Damage = 4040 X 3.06 = 12362.4
Maim Damage = 2900 X 3.36 X (14 x 0.6) = 10562.4

With just these multipliers Emp 4 is 17% More damage than level 20 maim.

This isn't taking into account people, using Calamity, and this doesn't take into account the massive Minion Damage % Increase either.

Those are my two cents.

A minions base damage has always scaled with gem levels, and unless Hoag is a special case it should also have its own based damage, attack speed, and accuracy. You can see it as the damage the minion does with 1 stack of virulence, minus the bonus it gets from 1 stack. This data is not available to us, you might estimate it though by testing.

What you're calculating on isn't its actual base damage, but the added damage it gains from the virulence stacks. When only comparing the extra added damage it gets from the virulence stacks Emp4 does look very good. using the Lvl 21's 2900 avg added and the lvl 24's 4040 avg added added, and then you apply the 800% / 840% inc damage as well (assuming 100% from the tree) then you get:
4040*(1+8.4+1) / 2900*(1+8+1) = 1.45. Thus without comparing it to any other gems, Emp4 buffs the damage the crawler gets from virulence stacks by 45%.

So the damage scaling for the virulence stacks is very good with gem levels, but we still don't know how well its base damage and accuracy rating scales with levels. Yet if it is anywhere close to the Virulence scaling then Emp4 would be the BiS red option for the 6th link, making it a very good contender to Vile Toxins 45-50% more multiplier.

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Tahreyn wrote:

The added damage you get from empower would be a guessing game until GGG releases the crawlers base damage and attack speed. Maim would however net you about 35% more damage in the end, depending on your setup. So if emp4 is actually around 39% dmg then it's a very expensive minor upgrade. Also, you do get the slow from maim.

The problem with maim is that it increase only physical damage, and as you can test yourself, the crawler has some base chaos conversion (or extra chaos). With this on mind the difference willd be bigger.
And also, i thin k we get maim from an ascendancy don't we?
From the point of mimmaxing if you can get +1 level of gems corruption it will be far ahead of any other support gem.


Anyway, the build is the best i've played, absolutely safe, with decent gear it has also great damage. Fool proof to play, fun, it has vaal cyclone! (great for outposts) No cons for me at least.
Thank you for making and sharing the build.

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Nirdana wrote:

The problem with maim is that it increase only physical damage, and as you can test yourself, the crawler has some base chaos conversion (or extra chaos). With this on mind the difference willd be bigger.
And also, i thin k we get maim from an ascendancy don't we?
From the point of mimmaxing if you can get +1 level of gems corruption it will be far ahead of any other support gem.

The more multiplier from maim works similarly to Melee Physical Damage, it'll apply it's 30% more before any conversion takes place. The "Enemies Maimed by Supported Skills take 14% increased Physical Damage" is another matter though. That part will only give about 4-6% more damage in the end, as some damage has been converted and some has been added as cold through hatred.

With a +1 to socketed gems it's no questions about it, just as you say. The interesting part with emp4 is usually if it's actually better than the other supports, and if that difference is worth the price it carries. With the increased power of virulence per level it looks like it'll be worth it, but without more info (and/or testing) I can't be certain.

Would you guys keep this or try to make a better one? The life is a bit low for my liking but it has great life on block and +1 max res (the global phys isnt entirely useless either). This was my best shield after around 30 fossils I had pretty bad luck :(

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demondied1 wrote:

Would you guys keep this or try to make a better one? The life is a bit low for my liking but it has great life on block and +1 max res (the global phys isnt entirely useless either). This was my best shield after around 30 fossils I had pretty bad luck :(

That shield looks pretty decent. looks like you can craft block chance too. At the very least I'd buy a new base to craft on.

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So I've been having fun with this build, done a lot of experimenting with Cyclone, then Poet's Pen+Barrage (killed uber elder with that setup).

I settled on Molten strike, the LGoH recovery is so strong with this skill.

I have also chosen to use The Surrender until I can craft a rare that is better, because even with more life on a rare shield I can save 2 passives with the high block chance of Surrender. Therefore The Surrender nets me more life by changing passives to life nodes. (I may have also tried to annul the shield I have linked in previous posts...oops.)

I'm currently level 91 with 7.7k life and I've done Uber Elder twice, neither one was deathless. Having some trouble with the second adds phase.
Pastebin for my character:

https://pastebin.com/Tpc227pN

Does somebody knows how HOA damage is calculated, especialle the speed and added damage?

A full scale crawler has about 800 increased damage and 160% IAS from the stacks - when this is additive to damage and speed from tree, skilling some minion bonus doesn't help much besides minion accuracy.

Like in a facebreaker build, where noone skills more melee damage% as necessary to get to other boni.

Also for gems this is the same question, expensive %minionspeed gems doen't do as much as for a zombie or domination blow build.

I'm leveling this build (with some modifications) at the moment. Since I'm playing SSF I must take what comes, so no lioneyes vision for me.

I wanted to 5-Link an ashrend instead, and got a 6 link in under 20 tries - lucky 6link, effective 7 link:


With these gems I'm at 71% reservation - not enough for mana based skills when adding another herald.

Have you considered a helmet like this?



I am finding massive damage increases by socketing a lvl 4 Empower ... trying to craft a +3 socketed minion with Essence of Insanity and still corrupting HoAg for that sweet +1 lvl. Currently running HoAg at lvl 25, but aiming for lvl 27 with +3 helm and +1 gem.

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Llyrain wrote:

Does somebody knows how HOA damage is calculated, especialle the speed and added damage?

A full scale crawler has about 800 increased damage and 160% IAS from the stacks - when this is additive to damage and speed from tree, skilling some minion bonus doesn't help much besides minion accuracy.

Like in a facebreaker build, where noone skills more melee damage% as necessary to get to other boni.

Also for gems this is the same question, expensive %minionspeed gems doen't do as much as for a zombie or domination blow build.

I'm leveling this build (with some modifications) at the moment. Since I'm playing SSF I must take what comes, so no lioneyes vision for me.

I wanted to 5-Link an ashrend instead, and got a 6 link in under 20 tries - lucky 6link, effective 7 link:

With these gems I'm at 71% reservation - not enough for mana based skills when adding another herald.

Herald of Agony is physical based attack damage with some (40%?) converted to chaos.

As for how its damage is calculated, it gains a flat amount of added physical damage per virulence stack. those amounts can be found here:
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Herald_of_Agony

You are right about scaling minion damage % and minion attack. Since the minion scales so much of it on its own it doesn't influence it as reatly as other minions. That said, those stats are still desirable where you can get them as the herald's base damage is huuge. I would prioritize attack speed over minion % though as this will have a greater impact on the crawler and also benefit you.

As for your armor, you really should swap out Maim with Minion Damage Support. It's a much greater More multiplier.

If you are using Cyclone (this really won't work with Moltenstrike in your case) You can grab Elemental Equilibrium on your tree to boost the fire and cold damage(from hatred if you can use it).

Personally, if not using Coming Calamity, I don't see a reason to use the other purity as you won't be able to give it any meaningful supports and still have enough mana reserve leftover.

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SaintCabal wrote:

Have you considered a helmet like this?

I am finding massive damage increases by socketing a lvl 4 Empower ... trying to craft a +3 socketed minion with Essence of Insanity and still corrupting HoAg for that sweet +1 lvl. Currently running HoAg at lvl 25, but aiming for lvl 27 with +3 helm and +1 gem.

I'm actually looking into crafting an Elder base because you can get Minion Damage Support in addition to the Essence mod and +3 gems.

I haven't crunched the numbers for it yet, but I imagine it would be more damage than my current 7L in Lioneye's Vision. Also opens up the use of more defensive chests like kaom's, Belly, or Loreweave.

Of note with the extra lightning damage we can utilize Elemental Equilibrium to boost our minion's Cold and Lightning damage.

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Gryphenprey wrote:

Herald of Agony is physical based attack damage with some (40%?) converted to chaos.

As for how its damage is calculated, it gains a flat amount of added physical damage per virulence stack. those amounts can be found here:
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Herald_of_Agony

You are right about scaling minion damage % and minion attack. Since the minion scales so much of it on its own it doesn't influence it as reatly as other minions. That said, those stats are still desirable where you can get them as the herald's base damage is huuge. I would prioritize attack speed over minion % though as this will have a greater impact on the crawler and also benefit you.

As for your armor, you really should swap out Maim with Minion Damage Support. It's a much greater More multiplier.

If you are using Cyclone (this really won't work with Moltenstrike in your case) You can grab Elemental Equilibrium on your tree to boost the fire and cold damage(from hatred if you can use it).

Personally, if not using Coming Calamity, I don't see a reason to use the other purity as you won't be able to give it any meaningful supports and still have enough mana reserve leftover.

Thank you for your answer and help.

The idea with Elemental Equilibrium is good - and I think scaling damage another way than just adding minion damage% from tree can help. But skilling %minion accuracy should help since they hit very bad without hit support.

What's about getting some bleed% and using a bloodlust support gem, the strongest more multiplicator gem? For normal monsters the damage should be good enough anyway, and bosses can get some extra damage. It's only a 125% gem, so it could be used.

I don't have a hatred now becaus of not finding the ring needed for it.

Enhancing it with EE won't work anyhow, since it would add cold damage to cyclone so it's even contra productive. But enhancing the added fire damage with a small lighing damage for weapons enchant on a ring / amu should work fine.

Thanks for the effort and write up, but I do think Molten Strike is way better for survivability