New player feedback on Labyrinth & Game in general

I've read a ton of threads discussing the lab and I've never participated. Let's change that...

Most of the time you could summarize these topics with that : "I want to be powerfull. I want my Ascendancy. I don't want to die."

There are a few things that could be fixed, like mentionned a few posts ago the issue (or lack of informations) with the charges for instance. But I don't see why removing the lab or making something that is not an a real challenge would be relevant when you compare to the power you get when you ascend.

The ascendancy is a corner stone of your build, and making it accessible like if it was a simple quest would be game breaking. You can't earn this much power without a sweat.

I do understand that new players can be stunned by the difficulty of the last ascendancy, but you have to understand that PoE isn't a game that you will truly master on your first character. And the lab is something you have to run quite a few times to be comfortable with it.

Like almost any game today, the issue with "dying in the lab" is only linked to some kind of frustration because you have to do it again and not fail (again). Well... you are on a game that is extensively designed around farming mechanics and a difficulty that (at some point) hits you really hard in the balls. This is a hard game, yes. Deal with it aka : improve you build, farm a bit, seek out for help, read some articles about it...

That said, there are a few mechanics about the über lab that could be improved. For instance, on this league I swore to get the final trials by myself and not use the global to get them. After 20 maps, I had the first 5 trials. After 90 maps, I had not seen the last one. This should not happen. Accessing the final stage of your build should be something that is guaranteed in your first, let's say, 30 maps. After that, you can rely on RNG to pop trials and allow the player to get additionnal offerings.

After 100 maps I gave up and got my trial using the global.

The way you get offering is also a bit boring at the end. Something could be done to get offerings with alternative solutions. Like I don't know, specific affixes on yellow monsters or bosses. Or for instance with a tormented spirit.

There are quite a few things that could be done to allow an easier access to the über lab.

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__MaX__ wrote:

I've read a ton of threads discussing the lab and I've never participated. Let's change that...

Most of the time you could summarize these topics with that : "I want to be powerfull. I want my Ascendancy. I don't want to die."

There are a few things that could be fixed, like mentionned a few posts ago the issue (or lack of informations) with the charges for instance. But I don't see why removing the lab or making something that is not an a real challenge would be relevant when you compare to the power you get when you ascend.

The ascendancy is a corner stone of your build, and making it accessible like if it was a simple quest would be game breaking. You can't earn this much power without a sweat.

I do understand that new players can be stunned by the difficulty of the last ascendancy, but you have to understand that PoE isn't a game that you will truly master on your first character. And the lab is something you have to run quite a few times to be comfortable with it.

Like almost any game today, the issue with "dying in the lab" is only linked to some kind of frustration because you have to do it again and not fail (again). Well... you are on a game that is extensively designed around farming mechanics and a difficulty that (at some point) hits you really hard in the balls. This is a hard game, yes. Deal with it aka : improve you build, farm a bit, seek out for help, read some articles about it...

That said, there are a few mechanics about the über lab that could be improved. For instance, on this league I swore to get the final trials by myself and not use the global to get them. After 20 maps, I had the first 5 trials. After 90 maps, I had not seen the last one. This should not happen. Accessing the final stage of your build should be something that is guaranteed in your first, let's say, 30 maps. After that, you can rely on RNG to pop trials and allow the player to get additionnal offerings.

After 100 maps I gave up and got my trial using the global.

The way you get offering is also a bit boring at the end. Something could be done to get offerings with alternative solutions. Like I don't know, specific affixes on yellow monsters or bosses. Or for instance with a tormented spirit.

There are quite a few things that could be done to allow an easier access to the über lab.

100% agree..

especially the part " hits you really hard in the balls" :D

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fwd wrote:

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Synopse wrote:

Maybe I will. Can you please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?

You can always ask your questions in this thread in case of any difficulties.

That is good to know. My first question is: Can you (or anyone else) please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?
Shouldn't be too hard, since you said that there are a lot of them.

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Synopse wrote:

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fwd wrote:

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Synopse wrote:

Maybe I will. Can you please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?

You can always ask your questions in this thread in case of any difficulties.

That is good to know. My first question is: Can you (or anyone else) please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?
Shouldn't be too hard, since you said that there are a lot of them.

I don't see how this information is required to run the lab.

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Synopse wrote:

Maybe I will. Can you please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?

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fwd wrote:

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Synopse wrote:

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fwd wrote:

You can always ask your questions in this thread in case of any difficulties.

That is good to know. My first question is: Can you (or anyone else) please give me some of those players' names to ask them for advice before trying it?
Shouldn't be too hard, since you said that there are a lot of them.

I don't see how this information is required to run the lab.

Topic was: Completing the campaign without doing labyrinth.
You caimed: there are a lot of player doing that.
I never did that, so I want to ask someone who do that, before trying it myself.
That is a valid question, since I don't want to waste my time on something that nobody ever did.

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__MaX__ wrote:

Like almost any game today, the issue with "dying in the lab" is only linked to some kind of frustration because you have to do it again and not fail (again). Well... you are on a game that is extensively designed around farming mechanics and a difficulty that (at some point) hits you really hard in the balls. This is a hard game, yes. Deal with it aka : improve you build, farm a bit, seek out for help, read some articles about it...
lab.

That is my impression too and a very good hypothesis to work with. Actually, that is not a new phenomenon. Five years ago Ninto's president Satoru Iwata hit the nerve with a satire PR article claiming that "around 90 percent of the test participants were unable to complete the first level of Super Mario Brothers."

IMHO there is nothing wrong to ask the question if the level of frustation is too high for too many player loving PoE.
For me personally, it is ok and feels rewarding, but it in the beginning it was very annoying to run the labyrinth. For others it is a game breaking experience. Then again, other content can be game breaking too. Like the limited portals on maps or the difficulty of some map bosses. My source of frustation in PoE is the death penalty, but that is a different story.

For most people, frustation can be compensated only through motivation. My observation is that the labyrinth has a lot to offer, which can be motivating. However, is this motivation enough to compensate the frustation? I think that this is something to be answered very individually.

My impression is that PoE seeks to cross the line between casual and pro gaming in both directions and in multiple ways. The labyrinth is pro gaming like content introduced very early and prominently. On the other hand, the boss fights in the campaign are casual content, since it doesn't matter how often you die. Then again, the maps are pro gaming content having only 6 portals to kill salty bosses and to carry out a lot of loot. However, campaign is early game and maps are end game. The labyrinth is different. It is first presented in Act 3, which is very early and next to casual-like content. Sure you can overlevel the labyrinth and try to ignore it as long as you can, but this doesn't prevent the players from being frustated due to its presence.

I am not sure, if there is a good solution that can satifsfy both those having the frustation and those anticipating the challenge.
A good start might be, to stick with the arguments focusing to the core element of the issue, i.e., the labyrinth as a source of frustation and how to overcome the frustation created.
From my experience, I can only describe how I overcome my frustration created from the labyrinth, which was doing it often. I acknowledge that this is not very helpful to someone, who hate it. Actually, I liked the concept from the beginning, which is a very different starting point.

Edit: What acutally made me liking the labyrinth was this presentation: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1824790

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__MaX__ wrote:

There are quite a few things that could be done to allow an easier access to the über lab.

I second this. I opened the access this league by myself and it took me 23 trials to complete. I would guess that it took me 200+ maps to do that. When playing standard, this is ok, since it is done once, but when playing league this is way too much. I think, I was unlucky, but it isn't too unlikely that hundrets of players even needed more trails than I did.

Excellent suggestions Synopse. But I'm afraid that it is impossible to make a game (or a mechanic in a game) that is at the same time "casual friendly" and "hardcore players" friendly.
At some point you have to choose a side, because with something in between, casual nor hardcore players won't be happy.

Maybe game should advert at launch "You're gonna die, it's gonna be hard... but don't worry, it's gonna be fun anyway. PS : If you're subject to stress and frustration, don't play this game" :D

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__MaX__ wrote:

Excellent suggestions Synopse. But I'm afraid that it is impossible to make a game (or a mechanic in a game) that is at the same time "casual friendly" and "hardcore players" friendly.
At some point you have to choose a side, because with something in between, casual nor hardcore players won't be happy.

Maybe game should advert at launch "You're gonna die, it's gonna be hard... but don't worry, it's gonna be fun anyway. PS : If you're subject to stress and frustration, don't play this game" :D

A key larger issue with lab is that the gameplay is orthogonal to the rest of the game, and yet character progression and definition is currently gated behind it.

The implicit message is "To define your ARPG character, you need to learn how to navigate a platform mini-game", to which some player's response is "Why would you gate character progression in an ARPG for 19 different classes behind one platform mini-game?" As a "bonus", the lore for lab is badly thought through even by the often very low standards of the ARPG genre, with the lore becoming even less sensible after converting the pre-maps gameplay to 10 acts; this leaves the "sore thumb" aspect of lab even more clearly in view.

I don't see this as "hardcore" vs "softcore".

YMMV.

The reason the lab is still here despite some player hate is because GGG dug their heels in with it. They used to do that. Not anymore as we see with bestiary.

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__MaX__ wrote:

Excellent suggestions Synopse. But I'm afraid that it is impossible to make a game (or a mechanic in a game) that is at the same time "casual friendly" and "hardcore players" friendly.
At some point you have to choose a side, because with something in between, casual nor hardcore players won't be happy.

Maybe game should advert at launch "You're gonna die, it's gonna be hard... but don't worry, it's gonna be fun anyway. PS : If you're subject to stress and frustration, don't play this game" :D

I wouldn't mind it being hard if it was something more predictably hard and not so gated behind RNG, plus we had more ways to come back and challenge the harder stuff if we failed afterwards.

As others have mentioned, getting that last Trial for the Eternal Labyrinth can be an absolute bitch and there needs to be a way to mitigate that.