What are people most interested in?

Headless is right, temp isn't more balanced and competitive lld isnt cheaper. Hld is actually easier to get good at..or at least win in. You have more mechanics to help you along offensively and defensively, more freedom to mold a build. Hell just look at the ppl in hld right now, if they can do it.....road kill can. I wouldn't be surprised if over half these ppl have their name along with "inside, outside" markered on their underwear and wear floaties.


I think excessively getting pked. Real pk, not this baby shit posted here by streamer. Guildwars and the influx of moba and other team based games has watered down PvP. To the point that ppl born in the late 90s early 2000s accept it as the norm, like they accept everything that sucks today.

Lld looks like midget mma/wrestling but that's where it ends. Ive been to McW, it's not only great but those guys truly have no limits. Where lld is like choosing to never get out of diapers or graduate 1st grade. Life's not balanced around said choices bc frankly theyre counter productive.

I posted years ago about all things PvP and especially about lld vs hld balance. Lld is by definition self balancing due to its many inherit limitations. It's balance should be a direct reflection of early game progression and item restrictions nothing more. Hld on the other hand should never suffer for it because its...end game.

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Head_Less wrote:

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Monstacookie wrote:

I voted LLD Temp for a few reasons:
- Low entry barrier for people who have never pvp'd and/or don't have 10's, 100's of exalts to spare

How is LLD even in temp having low barrier about currency?
I get that you can slap few uniques and give it a go but most pro LLDERS even in temps are using +1 op chest and crafted items that a pleb will never ever dream to get.

The level currency spendings from some people in LLD is way higher than in HLD.

hence, the match in LLD are more one sided than in HLD when the LLD pros who invested xxx ex are playing.

Honestly I don't have enough experience in HLD to know the base minimum of investment needed to make a viable build for it.

When I wrote that first comment I was keeping in mind the rules that were implemented last time PT was organizing pvp events (No corrupts, no 6L, no enchants,... ) and with those rules in mind you could make alot of builds work on a 30 to 100c budget.
On top of that you still don't have to level to 90+, get 20/20 gems, respec, etc. since you can just make lvl 28 chars for free.

Most of my LLD builds on STD cost around 30ex to make (with some exceptions) and that's T1 material.
However, you can make an LLD build on temp league for about 5ex that could still keep up with these T1 builds. They might not win but they won't get obliterated either.

I doubt you could do the same for HLD (but again, I wouldn't know because I haven't tried it.. yet)

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Head_Less wrote:

While in LLD having top gear can define a win in 90% of the cases, in HLD top gear (mirrors/legacy) don t mean that much. The level of currency a top LLDER will need to spend is way higher than in HLD too if he want to achieve top places.

hence, the match in LLD are more one sided than in HLD when the LLD pros who invested xxx ex are playing vs amateurs.

In hld, amateurs and pro can pretty much be at same level thanks to how broken the balance is.

I think you edited your post and it seems we're both arguing the same thing but in opposite directions :D.

Do you have any experience in LLD? Hard to speak for the other side without having at least some experience in it...

Anyways, could you give me an example of a HLD build that costs under 1ex, 5ex, 20ex, 50ex to make and still compete with the T1 mirrorworthy builds out there?

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Monstacookie wrote:

When I wrote that first comment I was keeping in mind the rules that were implemented last time PT was organizing pvp events (No corrupts, no 6L, no enchants,... ) and with those rules in mind you could make alot of builds work on a 30 to 100c budget.
On top of that you still don't have to level to 90+, get 20/20 gems, respec, etc. since you can just make lvl 28 chars for free.

Frankly I am not sure why you think under those rules HLD would not work.
In melee take a 1chaos oro in a 4l and you ll deal the same damage as if you would use a 300 ex fee 800 pdps sword.

Actually under those rules I think you would have still way more build diversity in HLD.

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Monstacookie wrote:

Anyways, could you give me an example of a HLD build that costs under 1ex, 5ex, 20ex, 50ex to make and still compete with the T1 mirrorworthy builds out there?

Ok so let s say there is no rules and it s free for all about currency+gear.

Well if you play melee, in HLD again for 2h a simple oro sword with the classic life chest for about 10-60 ex investment (jewels+6l swords+skills+items) will be on par with 6l mirror 800pdps builds worth 1000+ex.

For T1 cheap-cheat builds in HLD just search for Lapiz bear trap, Rupenus KB/prism or MArkusz zerphis/tank/indigon. Those builds goes from 10/15 to 70ex top.


Without rules and ban on item in HLD 1ex T1 build is not possible because of Tank es regen but you can start at 15-20-30 for sure.


Finally I did play a little LLD.

I had in my past a 999% facebreaker so It was easy to go in LLD during 1.3-1.5 and play nicely with that. I realized pretty quick tho that at some point you really need to invest into +1 chest and op multi craft gear to scratch the top dogs.

So I did not play top and not a lot of LLD.
I was a LLD scrub like I am a HLD scrub. But as a scrub I can swear HLD is way better to gear and have fun even vs top level players.


Ps:
Let s be honest here, I am not the one with the best credential to ask about top tier pvp builds and all I say is only reflecting my own opinion. I love HLD but I am not top dog.

players like Mulla-afhak-rupenus-markusz-lapiz-Tommy will surely have more expertise to give you about T1/HLD than me.

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Head_Less wrote:

Frankly I am not sure why you think under those rules HLD would not work.
In melee take a 1chaos oro in a 4l and you ll deal the same damage as if you would use a 300 ex fee 800 pdps sword.

Actually under those rules I think you would have still way more build diversity in HLD.

I'm having a hard time believing that oro's + rare chest would stand a chance vs mirrored 2H + legacy kaom's but ok..

Either way I'd love to see what a HLD tourney with gear restrictions would look like!

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Head_Less wrote:

Finally I did play a little LLD.

I had in my past a 999% facebreaker so It was easy to go in LLD during 1.3-1.5 and play nicely with that. I realized pretty quick tho that at some point you really need to invest into +1 chest and op multi craft gear to scratch the top dogs.

I honestly don't know any non-caster builds that use a +1 corrupt on chest. Not sure what made you think it was a requirement..

Yes, multicraft gear is very strong but if you look around a little you can get very similar items for 1 to 3c on temp leagues.

Example


The only items that really benefit from multimodding are rare weapons and elreon jewelry and even elreon isn't always necessary, it just costs you a herald.

Anyways, I just don't think ppl will want to spend 10-15ex to have some casual fun and not get completely wrecked in HLD when they can spend 30-100c on an LLD build and still be competitive.



PS: Aren't immortal/reflect builds a real issue in HLD?

Low level has a far lower entry barrier to be viable, but a way higher cost to be competitive in the top level. Within the context of a small tourney event, you can easily make a viable low level character for less than an exalt, and can make a build than can compete with the big dicks for less than 10. Though past that you start to really notice the difference in gear, a character with maybe 5 exalts invested will lose every time to a character with 100 exalts worth in gear. I'd say that the average high end low level character in standard would be worth maybe 20 to 30 exalts, even more if it's a caster. That's just how low level works.

You can very easily make viable characters in high level for around 10 to 20 exalts. Throw on a Starforge or Disfavour and a Kaom's Heart with good gear all around and you can compete nicely with Lacerate. Use a Quill Rain with Explosive Arrow on swap to deal with characters that are more than a few screens away from you. Throw on a high damage harbinger bow and off-screen people with Lightning Arrow or Ice Shot. A lot of very basic builds can compete in high level PvP, but they undeniably require more investment than basic low level builds do. I built a Lacerate character worth maybe 15 to 20 exalts that was able to compete in Sarn fairly well, and I used to play a build pretty much identical to Ah_Facks's old Champion but with vastly inferior gear. I know you can build "cheap" builds that are viable, but high level PvP's definition of a cheap barrier to entry is entirely different to low level's.

If you want to make a high level build for less than that, you have to either exploit mechanics or skills that are overpowered, or go full glass cannon, which I personally do not consider viable since glass cannons can get one-shot by mobs in the Twilight Strand. Neither of these are fun to play as, or against, to the majority of players, which is why high level PvP doesn't grow much if at all. There's a reason why every time you see new players come along they're playing some sort of cancer build, because they're the only builds that work on a low budget. I urge someone to prove me otherwise, show me a build worth less than maybe 4 exalts that isn't some sort of cheap shit.

I also want to stress that I'm not shitting on high level PvP at all, rather just the builds everyone seems to claim can compete with the big dicks. I actually think that the top tier builds people make are more interesting than pretty much all the top tier low level builds. The people who have spend hundreds of exalts and hours building characters deserve them, and I have no problem with those people enjoying what they enjoy. I don't even care if people get enjoyment from the builds I despise, I'm not gonna tell someone what they can't or shouldn't play. But I think

My experience with high level PvP is obviously significantly less than most of the people who post on this forum. That being said, I would like to think I have more experience than a lot of high level players do with low level PvP.

But Volatile dead work also in LLD as well as poet pen.
And if you guys made special rules for LLD why suddenly those rules can t be done in HLD.

Ban volatile in LLD, ban it in HLD too.
Same legacy aegis/leg kaom can be banned and pvp HLD would still be fun.

As for 10 ex being too much for HLD fun tourney,
how much do you guys think a character own in bank at level 90-95? It is not like players doing HLD pvp will come naked, they ll come with their modified pve toon with currency earned from 95+ levels of grind.

If you don t own at least 10 ex of gear at level 90-95 something is wrong to begin with.

Why would anyone playing HLD pvp would complain they need to put 10 ex in a toon while they probably already have a 5-10 ex 6l chest, some x+xx ex worth of items from 90+level and xxx number of maps.

Just doing basic story like shaper/atziri will net you a disfavor/starforge anyway. The only difficulty in gearing HLD is getting a 6link (well not even you can buy a 6l for 15 chaos then craft it).

Tho you are right about tanks/offscreeners, They are the main problem of HLd.
But again you can put special rules: forbid leg aegis, leg kaom, ask ranged not to use LMP/GMP, ask melee to use single target skills.




"which is why high level PvP doesn't grow much if at all"

I was pretty much ok with your arguments but this. I mean it s not like LLD is growing comparatively better than HLD.


Neither LLD or HLD are in a good spot since the pvp patch and it is all because GGG keep releasing stupid shit targeted toward Streamers and reddit temp league addicts.

Abyss jewels come to mind for example.... They deliberately release every temp league some broken shit to trigger temp league players addiction.

There are every temp league some specific temp uniques that are way more broken than what you find in actual perm league.

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Monstacookie wrote:

I'm having a hard time believing that oro's + rare chest would stand a chance vs mirrored 2H + legacy kaom's but ok..

Elemental damage>physical in HLD, Until you can craft 600-800 single elemental thanks to penetration.

While using conversion/physical damage gained as would give the mirrored weapon an edge in term of dps, the basic oro would deal enough damage to anyway kill as quick the mirror guy.

In this case the mirror sword is not even necessary and represent overkill compared to cheap oro alternative.

So melee vs melee there is no difference at all between oro and top tier mirror item if the oro guy have great gear too.

Guy is using conversion talisman? Well oro of course deal only fire so conversion talisman would hurt but then you have lightness chest. It is still possible to get 8k life naked with a 2h melee and still deal damage so switching from kaom to lighness might not be as much as a problem.

Now if you want to down a tank, you might want to use the mirror sword. It might not even be possible to use it to down the tank anyway.

what is the point of pvp, if the league is going to be flushed away? I want to min max my build for months, have huge palette of counters vs various another well min maxed builds.

why do i have to re-farm every item that i need to play the build i want? Most of pvp'ers find in game content very boring and repetitive. Most of pvp'ers don't like farming. Most of pvp'ers don't have lvl 100 characters. I get bored to death while mapping. That said, build making and trying different things makes me come back to poe.

Pvp for me is something that fills the lack of end game content in this game. A well Zerphi EA/Zerphi VD gives me a reason to think, theorycraft and make me develop ideas. They make me min-max, get lost in trial-error sessions until i find the correct recipe, correct formula to deal with them. So were the spark builds, so were the old EA builds so on. When i beat these "bosses" i feel empty again and purposeless.

Poe is not a pvp game, but each well min maxed character in experienced hands are like well designed, well thought end game bosses. That's what i come for. And i think i'm not alone.

You can never sell poe as a pvp game. But what i can assure you is that beating me, or most of the pvp'ers are harder than dealing with Über Elder. and it is fun. A LOT FUN.

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Head_Less wrote:

@Shazamarand
"which is why high level PvP doesn't grow much if at all"

I was pretty much ok with your arguments but this. I mean it s not like LLD is growing comparatively better than HLD.

You're right, actually. I should have phrased that differently. Neither are growing much if at all, for fairly similar reasons. I also, for the most part, agree that standard is a lot more balanced than temp leagues as far as high level is concerned. The only real exceptions are certain legacy items, such as Aegis or Kaom's that are undeniably better than current options for certain builds. Though on the contrary, I think temporary leagues are more balanced for low level.

Temporary leagues allow for players to far more easily acquire gear that would allow them to compete against the big dicks in standard, though of course there is a limit to what they can get since it's impracticable for them to get mirror tier equipment. It also allows for new gear tied to expansions and leagues to be mixed in, such as specific uniques, abyss jewels or beast crafting. A lot of the time they don't get balanced properly until after the league ends where they either get nerfed, or overshadowed by whatever new powerful shit gets added.

I don't really want what I say to be a point of contention, but I do think discussion is healthy. Obviously everyone here is going to have a massive bias to whatever they prefer to play, but I feel that can help address the issues with both formats.

Edit: I also agree with a lot of what Rup has to say, you can't really sell PoE as a PvP game, especially at this point. I also find a lot of the games content boring and repetitive, which is why I stopped playing temp leagues as much. Every month or so I find myself theory crafting some arbitrary build for either low level, high level, and in some cases even level 40, but then get driven away by how boring PvP can really be if you get stuck fighting with the wrong people.

My last post was a goof but on a more serious note:

I notice a lot of people saying that either temp or LLD are better places to start than perm HLD but it begs the question...

Are these people actually participating in PvP all year long? In my experience, the people playing PvP whether in 1v1 or in Sarn, day in & day out, are Perm HLD. I actually kind of believe the people who are answering otherwise are just "speculating" that temp leagues or LLD are more balanced.

I think most of us who have been around long enough, have seen this mistake *cough* greendude *cough* already destroy PvP. Its really time to stop ignoring the actual PvP players and start ignoring the masses who don't actually even play.

Just my opinion.

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Rupenus wrote:

what is the point of pvp, if the league is going to be flushed away? I want to min max my build for months, have huge palette of counters vs various another well min maxed builds.

What leagues offer is a sense of "fairness" to PvP in the exact same way they do to PvE. I am not saying that league PvP is cheaper or more balanced but people getting into PvP like the idea that people they are competing against in HLD or LLD have not had the ability to obtain items that are either no longer obtainable or insanely expensive.

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Pupenus wrote:

why do i have to re-farm every item that i need to play the build i want? Most of pvp'ers find in game content very boring and repetitive. Most of pvp'ers don't like farming. Most of pvp'ers don't have lvl 100 characters. I get bored to death while mapping. That said, build making and trying different things makes me come back to poe.

Honestly I agree with you, I am not one that argues that Perm league PvP should NOT exist. I have tons of stuff in perm leagues and PvP would be something to do with my economy and high level characters in standard that are just collecting dust. And I fully understand that in PvE there is no reason to get that last little bit of stats, ther eis no point in getting a +1 corrupted chest piece, you already have the tools to complete all the tasks. But in PvP that is a different story, I fully appreciate that advantage of perfection and the desire PvP can build in the ARPG genre.

The problem to solve, in my opinion is how to get people not necessarily interested in PvP but to give it a try. Also doing this knowing that GGG will not support it unless the PvP community can make it popular, so it turns into an event organization problem.

To me LLD is the gateway drug to get people into HLD