Still hate labyrinth

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j33bus wrote:

We've discussed this many many times, you're polling the entire player base since they all know they could post in feedback, you most certainly are not only polling people who post on the forum, and the last number we have is 5 million accounts from years ago. Then using the standard Bayesian correction for unsolicited feedback which is to multiply the number by 25, you get around 25000 people who have ever had a negative feeling about the lab. So you get 0.5% of people who think negatively about any aspect that have ever been in the lab.

Let's see Balgias has 9 forum posts. This is actually a small number of posts for someone posting here in the forums.

J33bus has made this false assertion before that the list, Over 370 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 980 posters in support proves that based on Bayesian statistics only 25,000 in the total player base dislikes labyrinth. He makes this assertion based on a false assumption.

There's some studies that indicate that only 1 in 25 consumers complain about a product that they are dissatisfied with. This is used as a "rule-of-thumb" for relevant statistical analysis. His whole argument is based on this and his false assumption is that this rule-of thumb is applicable to this situation. His mention of Bayesian statistics has nothing to do with this rule-of-thumb and is irrelevant nonsense being mentioned by j33bus in an obvious attempt to make it sound like he knows what he is talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_statistics I'll point out three other major flaws in his thinking that proves his assumption false. This statistical rule-of-thumb is not applicable to this situation.

First, the 1 in 25 figure is a "rule-of-thumb" based on all complaints coming in from all sources, letters, in-person, store returns, phone calls, emails, Internet, etc. This forum is just a single source not all possible conduits for potential complaints.

Second, the 1 in 25 figure is based on complaints about consumer goods that people have bought and paid for. PoE is a free to play game and it's clear that there's zero chance that anyone complaining is ever going to see any refund. This would obviously significantly depress the 1 in 25 ratio since no one should ever expect to get a refund from a free to play game.

Third, the forum does not function just as a conduit for complaints, like the complaint desk, letters, phone calls, store return desk, etc. which are all simple conduits for complaints. That is what the 1 in 25 figure is applicable to. Instead the forum functions more like a community that is a subset sample of the total player base. The reason we know this to be true is that Balgias is a typical example of someone on the list in that most have more posts than this. Actually, more common is for people posting their first complaint about labyrinth to have more posts than Balgias. That is like Balgias almost all in the list have made many other posts on the forum prior to complaining about labyrinth. If the forum behaved as a simple conduit for complaints then one would expect the people on the list whose first post to the forum would be fairly close to the overall ratio of forum posters to the total population of the PoE player base, maybe 2% or 3%, I'll guess. Whereas, the reality of this situation is that people posting on other topics prior to their complaint about labyrinth like Balgias is more like 98% or 99%. People rarely show up here just to complain about labyrinth or anything else. This simple proof is in the list.

This proves beyond a reasonable doubt that j33bus's assertion that according to Bayesian statistics only 25,000 in the total player base dislikes labyrinth is totally bogus.

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j33bus wrote:

We've discussed this many many times, you're polling the entire player base since they all know they could post in feedback, you most certainly are not only polling people who post on the forum, and the last number we have is 5 million accounts from years ago. Then using the standard Bayesian correction for unsolicited feedback which is to multiply the number by 25, you get around 25000 people who have ever had a negative feeling about the lab. So you get 0.5% of people who think negatively about any aspect that have ever been in the lab.

The 5 million figure is a bad choice as a denominator for multiple and very obvious reasons. Given the vocabulary you're using here, clearly you're intelligent enough to work out those reasons for yourself -- if you'd care to do that, that is.

If you don't care to acknowledge the limitations in your calculations, if you're presenting something as "the truth" when a willingness to look skeptically at your data is reasonable and warranted, then there's no reason to believe you're making an effort at being intellectually honest and no reason to treat what you're saying with any measure of seriousness.

You're right the 5 million number is a rough estimate it should be the number if accounts made by unique individuals that have entered the labyrinth once, it was a rough estimate, and you're right the 25 number should be lower since you're doing and non blind study and encouraging people to respond, and since the forum is not simply a complain desk though would run down that correction further. Though by no means of giving you all the help in the world are you going to make a significant number of people. Also this so called "rule of thumb" as you call it is the application of Bayesian statistics where our prior is how many people are likely to respond with negative feedback from researched samples. Ever PoE user is a forum user because they know that the forum exists even if they have not posted once, and if you think it's relevant to cut out infrequent posters that's your prerogative but you need to cut out infrequent posters who dislike the lab too.

Also you've made numerous claims about not including Izaro complains, which this clearly is, so stop padding your numbers.

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j33bus wrote:

You're right the 5 million number is a rough estimate it should be the number if accounts made by unique individuals that have entered the labyrinth once, it was a rough estimate, and you're right the 25 number should be lower since you're doing and non blind study and encouraging people to respond, and since the forum is not simply a complain desk though would run down that correction further. Though by no means of giving you all the help in the world are you going to make a significant number of people. Also this so called "rule of thumb" as you call it is the application of Baysean statistics where our prior is how many people are likely to respond with negative feedback from researched samples. Ever PoE user is a forum user because they know that the forum exists even if they have not posted once, and if you think it's relevant to cut out infrequent posters that's your prerogative but you need to cut out infrequent posters who dislike the lab too.

Also you've made numerous claims about not including Izaro complains, which this clearly is, so stop padding your numbers.

Sorry, j33bus, you really don't know what you're talking about.

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Turtledove wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

You're right the 5 million number is a rough estimate it should be the number if accounts made by unique individuals that have entered the labyrinth once, it was a rough estimate, and you're right the 25 number should be lower since you're doing and non blind study and encouraging people to respond, and since the forum is not simply a complain desk though would run down that correction further. Though by no means of giving you all the help in the world are you going to make a significant number of people. Also this so called "rule of thumb" as you call it is the application of Baysean statistics where our prior is how many people are likely to respond with negative feedback from researched samples. Ever PoE user is a forum user because they know that the forum exists even if they have not posted once, and if you think it's relevant to cut out infrequent posters that's your prerogative but you need to cut out infrequent posters who dislike the lab too.

Also you've made numerous claims about not including Izaro complains, which this clearly is, so stop padding your numbers.

Sorry, j33bus, you really don't know what you're talking about.

You enjoy thinking that your data is a meaningful pursuit, that if it were it proves anything but that you're wrong, and that you have any idea what you're talking about.

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j33bus wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

You're right the 5 million number is a rough estimate it should be the number if accounts made by unique individuals that have entered the labyrinth once, it was a rough estimate, and you're right the 25 number should be lower since you're doing and non blind study and encouraging people to respond, and since the forum is not simply a complain desk though would run down that correction further. Though by no means of giving you all the help in the world are you going to make a significant number of people. Also this so called "rule of thumb" as you call it is the application of Baysean statistics where our prior is how many people are likely to respond with negative feedback from researched samples. Ever PoE user is a forum user because they know that the forum exists even if they have not posted once, and if you think it's relevant to cut out infrequent posters that's your prerogative but you need to cut out infrequent posters who dislike the lab too.

Also you've made numerous claims about not including Izaro complains, which this clearly is, so stop padding your numbers.

Sorry, j33bus, you really don't know what you're talking about.

You enjoy thinking that your data is a meaningful pursuit, that if it were it proves anything but that you're wrong, and that you have any idea what you're talking about.

Ignoring the the three points I made and instead stating a falsehood about the current list is the best you can do? :-)

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For over a year, I ignored threads about just Izaro or enchants and not list those. My theory about those complaints is that they are not really about the new trap gameplay and other problematic mechanisms added in labyrinth, e.g., no portals. Also, complaints just about Izaro usually boil down to someone wanting the challenge to just be made easier. The focus I have is making it fun not easier. I also ignored the very few threads that had a positive OP regarding labyrinth. Starting in December 2017 I will now probably include most threads about Izaro. Izaro has been nerfed some and I think most of the threads about Izaro have something to do now with the loathsome area that he forces people to sometimes repeat making the distaste for Izaro even greater than otherwise.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1702621

Since it is apparently unclear to our close minded friend. Balgias, this thread opening post and thread title are your words. Do these words mean that you still hate labyrinth because Izaro killed you but the rest of lab is great fun or does "Still Hate Labyrinth" better mean something more like getting killed by Izaro is frustrating because then I have to repeat this bad content again?

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j33bus wrote:

We've discussed this many many times, you're polling the entire player base since they all know they could post in feedback, you most certainly are not only polling people who post on the forum, and the last number we have is 5 million accounts from years ago. Then using the standard Bayesian correction for unsolicited feedback which is to multiply the number by 25, you get around 25000 people who have ever had a negative feeling about the lab. So you get 0.5% of people who think negatively about any aspect that have ever been in the lab.

Those people who have the effort in them to voice their opinion on something are those who should be influencing it. Nothing you said in this entire post matters. NOBODY 'likes' lab if there weren't such hefty rewards involved, that's almost a quantifiable fact. You're not going to like hearing this but you're not as intelligent as you think you are.

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j33bus wrote:

So you get 0.5% of people who think negatively about any aspect that have ever been in the lab.

Let's look at the other half of that statistic then, shall we? 99.5% of ALL players who have EVER been in the lab have NOTHING but unqualified praise for it.

Sounds legit to me!

If you're going to tell someone nothing they said matters while claiming that people who make an effort to voice their opinion should have influence...


Irony aside, people will always find something to complain about. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the populace neither loves or hates the ascendancy process but are largely indifferent.

I can totally relate to people not enjoying doing lab - but I also think its silly when some of those people want the reward for ascendancy but are so unwilling to put in some extra effort to earn them.

A sense of reward is what drives most games, but especially so in PoE. The more you diminish the task to earn said reward means the items, the ess rewardying they're bound to feel.