F the labyrinth

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Telzen wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

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Player089 wrote:

I really dislike the traps as well.

So what though? It's something I need to do for my character progression. I don't like leveling to 70ish too, I find it boring because builds usually start to come together only at around 70ish.
I am not complaining about it though, it's just something that has do be done if you want your character to be stronger. Much like farming, much like anything in the game.

Completing all Labs will take you a total of one maybe two hours. That's two hours in a character that usually is played for what? 30? 40? How is that such a big issue that you need to vent that hard about it?
If you don't run labs for loot, then this particular content is a very, very small fraction of your gameplay and as such a true non-issue. And if you dont like lab and run it for currency, then you deserve it.

First off, that argument falls flat on its face with uber lab, which is there to be farmed.

Second, even if we only talk about normal-merc lab, does "at least there's not much of it" strike you as a good defense for any content in any game? Wouldn't you rather have fun content instead?

Except plenty of people do like the lab and find it fun. The point that you don't have to do it a lot is for the people who don't like it. Don't like it? Then do it a few times and be done, especially since they have been made easier/shorter. You do like it? Then farm uber lab. See, GGG have already compromised on the issue, I doubt they will change anything else.

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Zaludoz wrote:

I've championed these changes:



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The "Alternative"
is gaining access to a single map with 3 main chambers where you fight Izaro in each of his 3 stages. This is to remove the common disconnect error upon changing zones within the Labyrinth. In this version, each of these boss chambers is connected by hallways filled with undead builders for flask refills. Argus may make an appearance before the 3rd chamber for an extra challenge.

"Gaining Access" to the Alternative
There have been several variations to this suggestion that I've put forward:
* The most simple was a currency transaction with an NPC - opens a secret door in the normal labyrinth entry courtyard.
* The most involved required leveling the master associated with your chosen ascendancy class, to gain access to each stage of the one-time entry Labyrinth maps, accessed in the same fashion as their daily quests, though not limited to once a day.

The "Labyrinth" as we know it remains as is for treasures, enchants, races, etc.


***************


The Compromise:
For every section of traps (or for each map), there must be a "trap shut-off" switch that can be reached without going through traps. This switch must be guarded by Argus-type enemies (maybe just one Argus per map to get to the map's switch).

The switch guard may drop a quest item that must be inserted into an interactable terrain feature, so you can't just run past the big bad guard and turn off traps easy.


****************


At the very least, if NOTHING ELSE is done:
There must be a way-point AFTER each Izaro encounter.
* It must save the HP/status of Izaro, so each time you encounter Izaro, it is as if you just encountered him for the first time at each stage (like the normal progression is now - saving his condition from fight to fight, but with the ability to re-start each stage's battle from his initial HP for each stage).
* Activating one waypoint would de-activate prior waypoints within the labyrinth.
* Death deactivates the waypoints. (this is crash protection, not zerg enabling)
* The waypoint must be after the Izaro encounter so people still have to navigate the labyrinth from the waypoint to Izaro, not just zerging from the pre-battle room. (without any trash monsters to refill flasks, these subsequent runs may be more difficult than the first)
* Disconnecting or crashing and returning in this manner must disqualify the run from the ladders.
* This also de-activates the enchanting shrine and removes all treasure keys - making the run solely for the Ascendancy Points.

**************

Any one of those 3 would make me happy.
There are other suggestions that I've read, that I would support as well, but those are my preferences.

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suszterpatt wrote:

Why do you think that making lab fun for more people will somehow compromise it? It's not a zero sum game, one person's fun doesn't have to come at the cost of someone else's.

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

Why do you think that making lab fun for more people will somehow compromise it? It's not a zero sum game, one person's fun doesn't have to come at the cost of someone else's.

Which is exactly why the Lab should stay the way it is right now. So we can all choose to do it or not and get on with our lives. Optional is the key word here, folks. If they made Lab mandatory, like Kitava is, then you'd have a point. But even then, it's their game, their vision, their choice. We are but guests to this party.

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Zaludoz wrote:

As far as illustrations go, I'm far more fond of this one:

A Steak House opens.
You enjoy steak.
They added salad.
You like salad.
They added garlic toast.
You like garlic toast.
Every few months they introduce new steak sauces or new toppings for the salad.

They decide to offer Seafood.
You hate Seafood.

Most people who used to eat there before the seafood was added to the menu would just keep ordering steak dinners with the sides and toppings that they like.
Other people who want to try seafood, or even like seafood can order seafood. Good to have choices after all.
Some people like both, so they get surf and turf.

The Steak House decides they want to force everyone to like their seafood, so they have their waiters grab your steak dinner just before you've finished it, and force you to into the dilemma of either discarding the rest of your steak, or eat seafood before you can finish the last few bites of your steak.

THAT'S what it's like.

Edit: Oh yeah, it's not just any seafood, it's prepare-it-yourself Fugu... the fish that's deadly if prepared wrong, and people like because of the risky nature of the experience.

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Telzen wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

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Player089 wrote:

I really dislike the traps as well.

So what though? It's something I need to do for my character progression. I don't like leveling to 70ish too, I find it boring because builds usually start to come together only at around 70ish.
I am not complaining about it though, it's just something that has do be done if you want your character to be stronger. Much like farming, much like anything in the game.

Completing all Labs will take you a total of one maybe two hours. That's two hours in a character that usually is played for what? 30? 40? How is that such a big issue that you need to vent that hard about it?
If you don't run labs for loot, then this particular content is a very, very small fraction of your gameplay and as such a true non-issue. And if you dont like lab and run it for currency, then you deserve it.

First off, that argument falls flat on its face with uber lab, which is there to be farmed.

Second, even if we only talk about normal-merc lab, does "at least there's not much of it" strike you as a good defense for any content in any game? Wouldn't you rather have fun content instead?

Except plenty of people do like the lab and find it fun. The point that you don't have to do it a lot is for the people who don't like it. Don't like it? Then do it a few times and be done, especially since they have been made easier/shorter. You do like it? Then farm uber lab. See, GGG have already compromised on the issue, I doubt they will change anything else.

"

Xavathos wrote:

"

suszterpatt wrote:

Why do you think that making lab fun for more people will somehow compromise it? It's not a zero sum game, one person's fun doesn't have to come at the cost of someone else's.

Which is exactly why the Lab should stay the way it is right now. So we can all choose to do it or not and get on with our lives. Optional is the key word here, folks. If they made Lab mandatory, like Kitava is, then you'd have a point. But even then, it's their game, their vision, their choice. We are but guests to this party.

On the subject of a party, let's take it as an example. You can play music at a party, but only one track at at time. Do you honestly think any DJ would be able to please the entire crowd there? Of course not, but normally people will tolerate a bad song because better songs will come after. It seems to me like you'd be the kind of person that walks out the door the moment something isn't to your liking. That's absolutely fine, call the DJ shit, your opinion and you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean the party is bad though.

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Telzen wrote:

"

suszterpatt wrote:

"

Player089 wrote:

I really dislike the traps as well.

So what though? It's something I need to do for my character progression. I don't like leveling to 70ish too, I find it boring because builds usually start to come together only at around 70ish.
I am not complaining about it though, it's just something that has do be done if you want your character to be stronger. Much like farming, much like anything in the game.

Completing all Labs will take you a total of one maybe two hours. That's two hours in a character that usually is played for what? 30? 40? How is that such a big issue that you need to vent that hard about it?
If you don't run labs for loot, then this particular content is a very, very small fraction of your gameplay and as such a true non-issue. And if you dont like lab and run it for currency, then you deserve it.

First off, that argument falls flat on its face with uber lab, which is there to be farmed.

Second, even if we only talk about normal-merc lab, does "at least there's not much of it" strike you as a good defense for any content in any game? Wouldn't you rather have fun content instead?

Except plenty of people do like the lab and find it fun. The point that you don't have to do it a lot is for the people who don't like it. Don't like it? Then do it a few times and be done, especially since they have been made easier/shorter. You do like it? Then farm uber lab. See, GGG have already compromised on the issue, I doubt they will change anything else.