Off Topic - ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP - Forum

Boem I think you're missing the point. The original point was that Trump did not do anything meaningful about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. The whole bit about human rights was how in the US, freedom of speech and freedom to not be murdered in an embassy are considered human rights. Whether Turkey or Saudi Arabia consider those human rights has no bearing on the fact that they are in the US. Also the whole bit about not being murdered by your government not being a human right is sorta bonkers. If you consider any human rights to exist, such as freedom of thought, then the most extreme response of removing that freedom would be murdering the offender. I think it would follow that not being arbitrarily murdered is the most basic human right. But again, this is off topic and is besides the point.	Posted by MrCoo1#7432 on Mar 21, 2019, 2:27:46 AM Quote this Post
" MrCoo1 wrote: Boem I think you're missing the point. The original point was that Trump did not do anything meaningful about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. The whole bit about human rights was how in the US, freedom of speech and freedom to not be murdered in an embassy are considered human rights. Whether Turkey or Saudi Arabia consider those human rights has no bearing on the fact that they are in the US. Also the whole bit about not being murdered by your government not being a human right is sorta bonkers. If you consider any human rights to exist, such as freedom of thought, then the most extreme response of removing that freedom would be murdering the offender. I think it would follow that not being arbitrarily murdered is the most basic human right. But again, this is off topic and is besides the point. It is totally bonkers. He's using the argument that there is no human right in Turkey because it was violated. Even more silly, he didn't even point at an instance where it was violated. This is even after I proved to him that it is a human right spelled out in the Turkey constitution. Therefore there was no human right violation against Khashoggi! What?????? Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Mar 21, 2019, 2:34:42 AM Quote this Post
" Turtledove wrote: It is totally bonkers. He's using the argument that there is no human right in Turkey because it was violated. Even more silly, he didn't even point at an instance where it was violated. This is even after I proved to him that it is a human right spelled out in the Turkey constitution. Therefore there was no human right violation against Khashoggi! What?????? What does human rights have to do with this? The guy was murdered. The allegation was Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was involved. Saudi Arabia arrested a bunch of people over the killing. Saudis admitted Saudi officials was involved but insisted the Crown Prince was not involved nor responsible for his death. Don't believe Them? There is nothing they could do. In a way, it is reckless western accusations without substantial proof. You need more than that to accuse someone. That is the controversy.	Posted by deathflower#0444 on Mar 21, 2019, 2:52:18 AM Quote this Post
" deathflower wrote: " Turtledove wrote: It is totally bonkers. He's using the argument that there is no human right in Turkey because it was violated. Even more silly, he didn't even point at an instance where it was violated. This is even after I proved to him that it is a human right spelled out in the Turkey constitution. Therefore there was no human right violation against Khashoggi! What?????? What does human rights have to do with this? The guy was murdered. The allegation was Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was involved. Saudi Arabia arrested a bunch of people over the killing. Saudis admitted Saudi officials was involved but insisted the Crown Prince was not involved nor responsible for his death. Don't believe Them? There is nothing they could do. In a way, it is reckless western accusations without substantial proof. You need more than that to accuse someone. That is the controversy. I claimed that there was a human right violated and some people are claiming that there is no such human right. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Mar 21, 2019, 3:33:12 AM Quote this Post
I don't know why you are even debating this. It's not even worth your time, there's nothing to gain and just time to lose. It's like trying to debate with an anti-vaxxer that do not consider hundreds of researches to be valid. Build of the week #9 - Breaking your face with style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y IGN: Poltun	Posted by faerwin#5850 on Mar 21, 2019, 3:35:56 AM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" Boem wrote: " Raycheetah wrote: For an aspiring voice of reason, you're not doing so well, Boem. You've already descended into the pit of this metaphorical (your own metaphor, I might point out) monkey house to preach to the lower primates. Sadly, you fail to recognize the fact that the inmates might not take too well to being preached at, and certainly not by someone who assumes a superior moral and philosophical position. You may even be right, but your own poo-flinging won't make you popular here. ='[.]'= using past history as a basis for an argument isn't preaching neither is it poo-flinging. I'm highlighting why i don't consider it a "basic human right" tl;dr it's not a global right extended to every single human on this planet and it is not absolute but derived by concensus between nations to act upon that statement as if it where true. Which nations have already broken in the past and been sanctioned for(demonstrating it is a fragile truth) It being fragile doesn't imply we should not strive to keep and uphold it. But on a geo-political level the UN is pretty bad at enforcing it which doesn't really strike fear in the people most willing to break those rights. I'm from Belgium, find it odd but i am sort of familiar with the UN and how it operates on a global scale. And our history sort of highlights why we like global powers to play ball with one another and not spiral of in ideological lunacy. We didn't quite apreciate the last knuckle fight that came out of that ethic. Consider this more preaching and poo-flinging if that makes your day sir. Peace, -Boem- edit : maybe you think saying "either you dont understand my point or you are cluelles about war/war zones and geo-politics" is an insult/poo-flinging when in fact most people are cluelles about those things and it's not really "shamefull" in any way or a misunderstanding happened. I wasn't talking about your previous post regarding the UN; I was talking about your approach to this thread and those who post on it. You come across as preachy, like you're going to save our poor heathen souls. Pretty high-handed, and not at all appealing. ='[.]'= =^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/ whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled / =-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =[.]= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie	Posted by Raycheetah#7060 on Mar 21, 2019, 5:14:28 AM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" faerwin wrote: I don't know why you are even debating this. It's not even worth your time, there's nothing to gain and just time to lose. It's like trying to debate with an anti-vaxxer that do not consider hundreds of researches to be valid. You are terrible at factually deficit debates.	Posted by deathflower#0444 on Mar 21, 2019, 7:19:29 AM Quote this Post
" deathflower wrote: " Turtledove wrote: ... Therefore there was no human right violation against Khashoggi! What?????? What does human rights have to do with this? The guy was murdered. The allegation was Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was involved. Saudi Arabia arrested a bunch of people over the killing. Saudis admitted Saudi officials was involved but insisted the Crown Prince was not involved nor responsible for his death. Don't believe Them? There is nothing they could do. In a way, it is reckless western accusations without substantial proof. You need more than that to accuse someone. That is the controversy. Still trying to decide what people are expecting Trump to do in this situation. Declare war on Saudi Arabia for allowing this kind of thing to happen? Hardly a context to declare war, even against a country with a history of human rights violations. And even if he wanted to US to declare war, he would have to go through Congress to make it happen. The good news(?) here is that a high concentration of warmongers exist in Congress, so such a declaration should pass with a 2/3 majority. Yeah, there will be a few high-profile dissenters (read: media darlings), but any vote for war is a rubber stamp. Go to the UN and demand they do a more satisfying inquiry into the event? Useless. Demand that the UN impose economic sanctions on Saudi Arabia? OK, on this one, you might be talking. A lot. And it would be useless. A full trade embargo would be an economic disaster for petroleum-using countries. And it's not like the UN can demand the Saudis give away x amount of free oil for y amount of time. (And if they could, that would make the UN a truly frightening organization.) Throw out some suggestions, people. THat's how democracy works. [quote="Lovecraftuk"]I think the new meta is everyone bitching about the new league. [/quote]	Posted by EpicGoesXerxis#5466 on Mar 21, 2019, 7:57:48 AM Quote this Post
" Turtledove wrote: " deathflower wrote: " Turtledove wrote: It is totally bonkers. He's using the argument that there is no human right in Turkey because it was violated. Even more silly, he didn't even point at an instance where it was violated. This is even after I proved to him that it is a human right spelled out in the Turkey constitution. Therefore there was no human right violation against Khashoggi! What?????? What does human rights have to do with this? The guy was murdered. The allegation was Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was involved. Saudi Arabia arrested a bunch of people over the killing. Saudis admitted Saudi officials was involved but insisted the Crown Prince was not involved nor responsible for his death. Don't believe Them? There is nothing they could do. In a way, it is reckless western accusations without substantial proof. You need more than that to accuse someone. That is the controversy. I claimed that there was a human right violated and some people are claiming that there is no such human right. Not really, there is a treaty around it so it "exists". But it existing and it being enforced are two different things. America isn't going to war with turkey over a human rights violation for various reasons. Your claim is that trump doesn't care about human rights because he did not act upon an infringement of a treaty. My claim is this happens all the time and isn't as straight forward as your making it out to be. You seem to have very little sense of geo-politics and claim your qaulified to judge trump for his innactive response to the situation. You think Turkey is a stable country which plays by the human rights charter? To me that is proof enough of why your incapable of understanding the situation. If you fail to understand what has been going on in Turkey for the past fourty years and why both America and the EU are so forgiving to that country despite it's current political unrest and past then you can't possibly understand the motives for keeping silent and not taking action against them. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes	Posted by Boem#2861 on Mar 21, 2019, 8:36:34 AM On Probation Quote this Post
" MrCoo1 wrote: Boem I think you're missing the point. The original point was that Trump did not do anything meaningful about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. The whole bit about human rights was how in the US, freedom of speech and freedom to not be murdered in an embassy are considered human rights. Whether Turkey or Saudi Arabia consider those human rights has no bearing on the fact that they are in the US. I made a big post, but i'll put it down easier. First, do some reading on turkey of the past 40 years. Secondly ask yourself the question "why doesn't america or the EU intervene?" Then come back to me and ask why trump in specific didn't act "meaningfully" to the situation. As for the human rights matter, i think people who believe it is a "given" and not something under constant pressure and infringed upon daily on a global scale are delusional of reality. America probably has the longest list of infringements on human rights with the amount of wars it actively participated in and that's excluding the infringements that result in the aftermath of war when america goes "shit, guess we can't fix this part of the world, retreat boys". Which mind you, is partially a reason why turkey is what it is today which again, would be obvious to people who understand politics on a global scale combined with history. Trump is just the current "actor" on the stage, but the stage isn't new and can be studied at will by anybody. And thank god he doesn't play "bluff poker" with erdogan over a single unfortunate death. Most likely, adviced by people far smarter then him on geo-politics. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes Last edited by Boem#2861 on Mar 21, 2019, 9:19:38 AM	Posted by Boem#2861 on Mar 21, 2019, 9:03:24 AM On Probation Quote this Post