PoE life pool is so wrec't and soon ES will be to. Where's the solution?

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Arrowneous wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Players will have to adjust to the new environment. The problem that PoE had developed was that you could overcome the challenges of the game with equipment rather than learning to play. GGG has always wanted a game that you could beat with skill rather than equipment.

Power creep kept them from ever having this be consistent with challenging those that do have good equipment. So... they're narrowing the difference between the haves and the have-nots. Good for them.

Yes, that's for damn sure. I mean, full clearing Shaped Strand in < 1 minute. No skill at all needed if speed running maps can be done that fast. Just uber gear up and Flicker Strike smash through all packs from end to end. Total insanity and massively broken.

Edit: Ascendancy got us on the slippery slope of power creep and GGG can't turn the page back on that. I wish they could but that genie is out of the bottle forever. Chris stated he's in favor of an overall slowing of play speed but that too many players would rebel and quit if they were to do that.

Actually you should ask them this "Is the last 2 map Tier for best-geared or well-geared or ok-geared".
I notice something though, Uniques-Combo is causing problem to the SSF/solo/new-players/, the combo are just too stong. I am surprise when i return to find the unique flasks.
But we cant really penalised the other-side of the camp either. Remember this, THEY ARE PLAYERS TOO, irregardless of their playstyle. Plus if they contribute $$ to GGG, yah why break the bank?

Best suggestion i can think of is adding "cannot be trade with OTHER account" mod on the gear/item.

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Bars wrote:

There's a reason almost everyone who can afford it is running with 10k+ ES builds with instant leech. The reason is, nothing else works if you want to consistently survive high-tier content. And even that doesn't always work, it just has the highest probability of success.

This. Especially when you get a sudden lag (that often happens due to PoE's poor optimization).

6k life feels really tanky, more so than my 10kes char. AS long as theres vaalpact.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnuAUSg6No&t=167s

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Bars wrote:

There's a reason almost everyone who can afford it is running with 10k+ ES builds with instant leech. The reason is, nothing else works if you want to consistently survive high-tier content. And even that doesn't always work, it just has the highest probability of success.

This. Especially when you get a sudden lag (that often happens due to PoE's poor optimization).

It's apparent with beta FoO that GGG's desire to nerf ES and stop 20K+ ES builds is working as the FoO streamers are all/most going with life builds playing the beta. But seriously just how many players could get T1 geared for over 20K ES? Maybe .001 of the player base? Less than that?

I've always hated the mentality of game devs in saying "we've seen a 25K ES build so we must nerf ES". Out of millions of builds just how many can get that high of ES? So GGG wrecks ES and we have to go back to life builds. It's just like when I was in grade school, 1 kid talks out of turn and the teacher punishes the whole class and makes everyone write "I will not talk in class" 500 times. Stupid... just stupid.

What GGG should do is look at these outlier crazy high ES builds and see just what gear combo is allowing them to stack that much ES and nerf individual pieces of gear and not do an across the board nerf of the base of ES. GGG is indirectly saying "a few players can abuse ES so everyone must be made to suffer for their cleverness". GGG will never admit that certain T1 gear breaks balance and fix just those items instead.

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Bars wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

As a matter of fact, with volatiles rework a decent healthpool and a solid secondary defense are going to feel much tankier. (decent beeing some 5.5k health)

A random monster in a high-tier map can oneshot you at 5.5k health, especially without fortify. Tanky, my ass. I had an incinerate marauder at 8,4k life with acro, phase acro and atziri's boots in Tempest league - didn't feel tanky at all, and not just because of volatiles. And that was a long time ago, when map tiers were lower and the monster power creep wasn't where it is today.

Hell, I had a MoM firestorm chieftain at 13k combined life+mana in Perandus league, and THAT didn't feel tanky in high-tier maps. Especially some perandus packs, oh man. Felt positively squishy.

There's a reason almost everyone who can afford it is running with 10k+ ES builds with instant leech. The reason is, nothing else works if you want to consistently survive high-tier content. And even that doesn't always work, it just has the highest probability of success.

So, your subjective opinion on this is that your 13k combined health toon felt squishier than the 10k ES builds. Even though both builds are pure sponge builds and the only thing that sets apart the effectiveness of those builds is buffer and the health build clearly wins?

Kay.

And nothing but bosses hit for over 5k *per hit* in high tier maps. Which is all that really matters to evasion toons, as long as sustain is fast enough.

And there is the reason you feel so squishy on both those characters. You need more ways to sustain health. Thats why VP is so OP, its a one-keystone "all my sustain problems are solved forevermore" bullshit mechanic.

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Arrowneous wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Bars wrote:

There's a reason almost everyone who can afford it is running with 10k+ ES builds with instant leech. The reason is, nothing else works if you want to consistently survive high-tier content. And even that doesn't always work, it just has the highest probability of success.

This. Especially when you get a sudden lag (that often happens due to PoE's poor optimization).

It's apparent with beta FoO that GGG's desire to nerf ES and stop 20K+ ES builds is working as the FoO streamers are all/most going with life builds playing the beta. But seriously just how many players could get T1 geared for over 20K ES? Maybe .001 of the player base? Less than that?

I've always hated the mentality of game devs in saying "we've seen a 25K ES build so we must nerf ES". Out of millions of builds just how many can get that high of ES? So GGG wrecks ES and we have to go back to life builds. It's just like when I was in grade school, 1 kid talks out of turn and the teacher punishes the whole class and makes everyone write "I will not talk in class" 500 times. Stupid... just stupid.

What GGG should do is look at these outlier crazy high ES builds and see just what gear combo is allowing them to stack that much ES and nerf individual pieces of gear and not do an across the board nerf of the base of ES. GGG is indirectly saying "a few players can abuse ES so everyone must be made to suffer for their cleverness". GGG will never admit that certain T1 gear breaks balance and fix just those items instead.

People are just under the misconception that ES got nerfed because 25k ES builds were going rampant. ES got nerfed because it was completely trivial to get 12k+ ES with no investment whatsoever. Hell, i broke 12k ES SSF with complete garbage tier gear.

A Life build needs to rock kaoms to get to 12k buffer, and it is vastly more difficult to get that chest and incorporate into your build than getting a 700 ES cest.

Narrowing that gap is a thing that needs to happen, no matter how much of a hissy fit the community throws.

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Arrowneous wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Bars wrote:

There's a reason almost everyone who can afford it is running with 10k+ ES builds with instant leech. The reason is, nothing else works if you want to consistently survive high-tier content. And even that doesn't always work, it just has the highest probability of success.

This. Especially when you get a sudden lag (that often happens due to PoE's poor optimization).

It's apparent with beta FoO that GGG's desire to nerf ES and stop 20K+ ES builds is working as the FoO streamers are all/most going with life builds playing the beta. But seriously just how many players could get T1 geared for over 20K ES? Maybe .001 of the player base? Less than that?

I've always hated the mentality of game devs in saying "we've seen a 25K ES build so we must nerf ES". Out of millions of builds just how many can get that high of ES? So GGG wrecks ES and we have to go back to life builds. It's just like when I was in grade school, 1 kid talks out of turn and the teacher punishes the whole class and makes everyone write "I will not talk in class" 500 times. Stupid... just stupid.

What GGG should do is look at these outlier crazy high ES builds and see just what gear combo is allowing them to stack that much ES and nerf individual pieces of gear and not do an across the board nerf of the base of ES. GGG is indirectly saying "a few players can abuse ES so everyone must be made to suffer for their cleverness". GGG will never admit that certain T1 gear breaks balance and fix just those items instead.

When i played ES Pathfinder in Essence league, i reached ~15k ES. Sure, with Occultist ascendancy, better gear and more ES nodes, one could reach 25k ES, probably.
But my PF felt almost invincible (without lags) even with that 15k ES (due to flasks, of course).
Even with 15k ES, i shitted upon game's content, facerolling everything. Could any life build get the same result? No! Life builds are literally capped at 8k HP, and even MoM builds have troubles reaching values above 10-11k (and they all spend more passive to get that pool, than my PF did).
So, how do you plan to balance things out, when ES builds are clearly superior?
GGG decided to hit ES with BIG nerfhammer, i agree. Was it big enough, or maybe too big? We'll see. ATM, i find those nerfs justified (until i saw it live).

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Cataca wrote:

So, your subjective opinion on this is that your 13k combined health toon felt squishier than the 10k ES builds. Even though both builds are pure sponge builds and the only thing that sets apart the effectiveness of those builds is buffer and the health build clearly wins?

Kay.

1. All opinions are subjective. You put that word here just to be condescending.

2. You completely missed the main point here. The missing component was the instant leech. I had a hitpoint pool equal to or even better than many ES pools, but without the instant leech it is simply not the same.

3. "kay" = more condescension after completely missing the point

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Cataca wrote:

And nothing but bosses hit for over 5k *per hit* in high tier maps. Which is all that really matters to evasion toons, as long as sustain is fast enough.

This is flat out wrong and tells me you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen multiple instances of single mobs hitting for over 5k in high-tier maps without ridiculous damage mods. I'm not going to even argue about it. This is the point at which I simply state I disagree and end it, because any further discussion with you will be a waste of time.

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Cataca wrote:

And there is the reason you feel so squishy on both those characters. You need more ways to sustain health. Thats why VP is so OP, its a one-keystone "all my sustain problems are solved forevermore" bullshit mechanic.

No, here is the reason why you should try to apply more reading comprehension next time you try to speak down your nose at someone. My main point was that you need both a high buffer and VP to have a reasonable enough chance of survival. Having just the VP and a somewhat decent HP pool, or a high HP pool without VP, will help you survive *most* of the time.

I think that's a shitty deal, and I don't like that. You apparently think that's good, and how it should be. And *that* is the actual subjective difference. I think players should be more powerful, you think they should be weaker.

We could've left that at the stage of polite disagreement, but it seems it will have to be just disagreement.

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Bars wrote:

1. All opinions are subjective. You put that word here just to be condescending.

2. You completely missed the main point here. The missing component was the instant leech. I had a hitpoint pool equal to or even better than many ES pools, but without the instant leech it is simply not the same.

3. "kay" = more condescension after completely missing the point

Its subjective, because it matters fuck all if a build has 10k ES or 10k life as its main defensive mechanic. Both are equaly tanky, because both have equal buffer.

You dont need VP to get enough sustain whatsoever. There are tons of ways to build a successful character that doesnt rely on it. VP is just objectively the strongest with the least investment. (which is why i hope it gets obliterated)

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Bars wrote:

This is flat out wrong and tells me you don't know what you're talking about. I've seen multiple instances of single mobs hitting for over 5k in high-tier maps without ridiculous damage mods. I'm not going to even argue about it. This is the point at which I simply state I disagree and end it, because any further discussion with you will be a waste of time.

So the old "i am right because i am right" argument.

I have farmed guardians extensively this league, and the only thing that kills you is rapid damage, which is a sustain issue first and formost. Apart from bosses nothing will one shot a 6k health character.

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Bars wrote:

No, here is the reason why you should try to apply more reading comprehension next time you try to speak down your nose at someone. My main point was that you need both a high buffer and VP to have a reasonable enough chance of survival. Having just the VP and a somewhat decent HP pool, or a high HP pool without VP, will help you survive *most* of the time.

I think that's a shitty deal, and I don't like that. You apparently think that's good, and how it should be. And *that* is the actual subjective difference. I think players should be more powerful, you think they should be weaker.

We could've left that at the stage of polite disagreement, but it seems it will have to be just disagreement.

Well, we can agree that we basically dont agree on anything.

First and foremost, that the status quo of heaving one way to build your defenses, and this beeing the strongest way to go about it is something GGG should keep.

Second, that GGG would not balance things down the line if the new defenses are incapable with keeping up with damage in endgame maps.

And the reason i am harsh with my tone, is that there is nothing that is constructive about whiny defeatism in a discussion. It leads nowhere, as i suspect this thread will.