Laybrinth alternatives

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Humperding wrote:

You can make them really hard and long, i don't care, but please make them in the same style as the rest of the game. You know, killing mobs and such.

Contradicting yourself. You open this thread because Lab is too hard for you, and then you suggest that the alternative should be really hard and long. What you really mean is long and easy.
But what you really mean is, just easy. You just didn´t wanna come right out and say it like that.
You are aware of the fact that the Ascendancy is gated behind a challenge.
You want to circumvent that with a simple, long grind.

"

Humperding wrote:

This is just a humble request, ignore it if it's too much to ask. Just out of curiosity concerning other players, please comment if you feel similar to me.

Yes,it is too much too ask. And no, it´s not a humble request.
Because you personally cannot deal with a certain aspect of the game, which other players might enjoy
you want the devs to change the game according to your wishes.
"But you can keep the lab". Okay but what about the players who feel cheated then ?
The ones who have been sweating in fear, but still completed it and feel rewarded now ?
Or anyone who takes pride in the fact that they are able to run the lab themselves.
Those accomplishments would be tarnished and senseless, because you could get the same rewards
for no risk.

I have a humble request to ask of you. Have you really done everything you can to prepare yourself for lab ? Did you make sure that you had a Chemist Basalt Flask with a 25% reduced charges use ?
Did you make sure that you have physical mitigation ? Did you visit the extraordinarily helpful
site POElab, a homepage made by dedicated lab runners who put the entire Lablayout online
a couple of minutes after the Lab resets in the middle of the fucking night ?
I have this one humble request to make. Please change your own approach, before you want to change
the game as a whole. Ask yourself what your request would mean for the silent majority of players
who enjoy the lab. And ultimately, even though my words may seem harsh, ask yourself if you would really be happy with a safe, boring, long grind that gives you the ascendancy you want.
Everybody does lab. Are you really that much worse than the rest of us ?
If you can do it by yourself you will feel a sense of relief, and pride.
And after you´ve done it a thousand times you will ask yourself, why you were scared back in the day.

In short: Git gud.

"

NoDiscoSisqoOrCalypso wrote:

In short: Git gud.

And here it is the same old argument. First they say that lab is hard and they feel some great achievement from beating it. Ok cool good for you, if it's the achievement that you want then keep on doing it, we aren't trying to take it away or make it easier we want an alternative. You can still choose to do it the same way you are doing it now.

"But but, then you get the same reward for doing something way easier!!! Wah!!!"

No we only want ascendancy points which are basically required for almost every build. You still get enchants, and all the cool stuff from the keys. Plus you get the satisfaction of feeling better than me. Because lets face it if you beat uber lab you are superior to everyone else that doesn't like it regardless if they beat it or not.


Next the argument shifts to that the lab isn't that hard you just have to prepare and gear properly for it. This is actually true for most people. It isn't impossibly hard it's incredibly tedious. I've finished uber lab, I've paid someone to run uber lab, In the end I still get the points. It's just a giant pain in the neck that I don't want to deal with just so I can get back to playing the game. I don't get any satisfaction of beating Uber lab, I get enjoyment from the rest of the game.

The most important part of these arguments is regardless of the fact that they aren't actually losing anything. They don't want others to have an enjoyable way of ascending.

In short: Lab doesn't bother these sort of people (which is great) but they really want you to suffer. Why? Because then they feel superior.

you want something for free that others had worked hard to achieve. you wont find sympathy

ggg designed lab as a 'rite of passage' thing - mechanic that tells the bad players with bad builds that they are bad players playing bad builds. unsurprisingly these types of players are not happy to hear that. some are even angry. most are actively rejecting that (they will 'admit' to being bad but still feel strongly about their superiority inside). only a few get the message and stop being bad players with bad builds.



get better, stuff wont be so tedious.

every tried running? or sport? or anything remotelly difficult?

it is never easy at the begining. nor it is fun when all you know can be summed up with few words. you can overcome your weakness and move on. or whine for a free handouts

'i suck at this game but i want to be a winner too!'

what is tragic is that similar attitute 20 years ago would result in public disgrace. nowadays - people are quite proud to think this way!

I got satisfaction from being uber lab, but I also felt like I didn't need the last two ascendancy points at that point (I don't make builds good enough for endgame superbosses otherwise Uber Lab would've been no problem, so the last ascendancy points aren't that helpful anyway other than continuing maps). I still think that most builds should expect to have six ascendancy points.

I think Labyrinth needs to have level design improvements, which will never happen as long as nobody suggests them and instead keeps asking to have it removed entirely. Traps sometimes have layouts with no thought to them (usually thin corridors with things that will hurt you), and I've figured out that a lot of trap layouts with stairs that count as fire DoT floors will trap you and leave you with no safe spot. These are only a couple of things that can be made to work better and still be a massive, significant burden lifted on a lot of players, but everybody keeps asking for the lab to be removed entirely which is far too unrealistic and not very useful dialogue for GGG to draw feedback from.

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sidtherat wrote:

get better, stuff wont be so tedious.

Really? Because I'm pretty good at doing dishes, but it's still tedious, Pretty good at scooping up dog poop, but still tedious. My guess is you don't understand the difference between challenging and tedious.

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sidtherat wrote:

you can overcome your weakness and move on. or whine for a free handouts

'i suck at this game but i want to be a winner too!'

what is tragic is that similar attitute 20 years ago would result in public disgrace. nowadays - people are quite proud to think this way!

You don't get it most people have beaten lab once, but don't want to do it for every character but they pretty much have to in order to build the character. This is what people don't get ascendancy isn't a trophy or reward it's a major part of your character. The helm enchant and random goodies are the trophies/rewards.

Twenty years ago not a single person would be disgraced by wanting a video game to be fun rather than tedious. In fact only recently have people started taking more pride in what they can do in a video game rather then real accomplishments. Don't try to make this about handing trophies out to kids at your soccer game it's a whole different thing altogether.

At the very least only make people suffer through uber lab once, then if they beat it they can choose to do the alternative method with every other character and not have to repeat the same chore for every character.

Humperding, OldmanBlackdragon, and DuckYourHead321 thank you for voicing your opinions on the labyrinth. I've added you to the list of account names that have voiced similar views now 770 names long. As the list grows longer our voices grow stronger. Over 310 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 760 posters in support

Just for fun I note that Humperding, OldmanBlackdragon, and DuckYourHead321 all have accounts created well before [removed]'s account. What is interesting about that is that [removed] seems to get very upset when I say things like they have all been playing PoE longer than [removed]. I note that it doesn't mean that they play more than [removed] or have even been playing continuously. I don't know why this is so upsetting to [removed] but I guess we all have our own cross to bare. On a slightly different topic [removed] and [removed] are likely going to think that Humperding, OldmanBlackdragon, and DuckYourHead321 are my alt accounts or The_Reporter's alt accounts, at least [removed] implied such a thing just today. This is really looney toons in my opinion. These three fine individuals all have supporter titles, other posts on the forum, and accounts older than most people's accounts.

For the record, I usually provide the following information at this point. Think of it as part of my attempt at trying to be transparent about the construction of the list. So for example if GGG wanted to research the construction of the list then it should help them in that research.
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Humperding wrote:

I am a mostly casual gamer who happens to like action RPGs. Some time ago i fell in love with PoE and kept playing it for some time. While not participating in every league i always came back every few months, made a character in the current hardcore league and checked how far i could get.

The last two times i did this i noticed that the thing that always killed me was the labyrinth. Ok, you may think, you just suck at that. And i agree. I really don't like super mario style games and i have never been good at them.

Well, the labyrinth is optional, i don't have to do it. But of course that is only true if you want to cripple your character at higher levels. I am definately not having fun on those runs but i feel like i have to do them... and they take a lot of time. This game is really fun... except for those things. In a video it was hinted that maybe there will be alternatives to that for achieving the accendency classes. That would be really great for me (and maybe for others as well). You can make them really hard and long, i don't care, but please make them in the same style as the rest of the game. You know, killing mobs and such.

This is just a humble request, ignore it if it's too much to ask. Just out of curiosity concerning other players, please comment if you feel similar to me.

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OldmanBlackdragon wrote:

TLDR version: Ascendancy is too important to gate behind one option. Giving us a choice between lab and X would make or keep everyone happy. Considering how much new content they are puking out for 3.0 there is no excuse not to have an alternative to lab.

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This is just a humble request, ignore it if it's too much to ask. Just out of curiosity concerning other players, please comment if you feel similar to me.

Plenty of people feel similar. There is no reason for GGG not to make an alternative to ascendancy. All the lame excuses people are going to throw at you have already been rationally discussed and countered. It all boils down to this:

For some people lab is great fun, so we keep the lab unchanged just add an alternative and they can keep on enjoying lab all day long and with people choosing not to do the lab helm enchants go up so lab is more profitable for them.

For some people lab is a dirty chore they hate to do, an alternative to ascendancy makes them happy, and if they want helm, boot or glove enchants they have to trade for them, that's the price of not doing lab.

For the rest they are somewhere in between, Maybe they just don't want to do lab on a certain character, well with an option they don't have to.

So lab alternative = great for everyone

What's worse is they have asked the community to provide feedback and the community has more than obliged. The solution has been clear for quite some time now but frankly the only thing that looks like is preventing it is stubborn pride. It's not like trade where there are a hundred different ideas floating around about how it should be done. Also unlike most trade solutions, with ascendancy you can have your cake (granted to me lab is a turd cake) and not eat it too.

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DuckYourHead321 wrote:

Lab is garbage and traps have no place in an arpg,imo. Figuring out the pattern for the first screen but having to yolo the next 7 is shit design. That would be fine if you could actually die there like a normal map, or be able to leave for a trade like a normal map. If it wasnt for the MASSIVE POWER hidden behind it i think few would run it.

You suck lab, I boo thee

Boooo

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LowBudget780 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

you want something for free that others had worked hard to achieve. you wont find sympathy

ggg designed lab as a 'rite of passage' thing - mechanic that tells the bad players with bad builds that they are bad players playing bad builds. unsurprisingly these types of players are not happy to hear that. some are even angry. most are actively rejecting that (they will 'admit' to being bad but still feel strongly about their superiority inside). only a few get the message and stop being bad players with bad builds.



get better, stuff wont be so tedious.

every tried running? or sport? or anything remotelly difficult?

it is never easy at the begining. nor it is fun when all you know can be summed up with few words. you can overcome your weakness and move on. or whine for a free handouts

'i suck at this game but i want to be a winner too!'

what is tragic is that similar attitute 20 years ago would result in public disgrace. nowadays - people are quite proud to think this way!

Labs should be accessible to everyone not just meta lab runners.

Any build can do the first three labs. Only the endgame lab requires a good (but not necessarily meta) build.

It's interesting that all the new lab hate threads try to compare the gameplay to old video games. It's almost like they are being coached or use a template to make their arguments.

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mark1030 wrote:

It's interesting that all the new lab hate threads try to compare the gameplay to old video games. It's almost like they are being coached or use a template to make their arguments.

Yep. Reminds me of Goonswarm forum campaigns from the olden days in EVE Online.