YOU MORONS CRYING FOR AUCTION HOUSE DIDNT SEE D3

"

Phrazz wrote:

People already whine about how useless drops are. And the easier trade gets, the more mandatory it gets.

- Trade is already mandatory for proper progression, the only people whom it is not necessary to are new players who are not fully aware of how necessary it is and SSF players who refuse to deal with it altogether.

And the more mandatory trade gets, the more it will influence the game when it comes to balance.

- The availability of goods is non-equatable to game mechanics and item balance. These things have nothing to do with each other.

Either people refuses to see this, or they don't give a shit, because all they care about is to buy what they want, when they want. I'm too "old school" to phantom how a game like this can be fun, when all items are accessible one or two clicks away.

- Nothing is "two-clicks" away in this economy or one that would be established with an AH present, you still have to have the currency to pay for the items based on their scarcity and that means hours, days or months of grinding to get the desired amount.

1) WHY should YOU be able to buy what you want, when you want?

- Because IF you have TRADE in the game the ability to acquire a good that is ON THE MARKET is an INHERENT RIGHT that comes with the presence of the system. If you deny that, the system is broken which is the case now with poe. Not only that, but when you allow the seller to liberally withhold the right to exchange goods they have placed on the market you open it up to easy manipulation and scammers.

2) As trade is THE most powerful tool in this game: WHY shouldn't it require some effort/time?

- I have to message literally hundreds of people on a regular basis when I want to buy a cheap resource that I need to play the game. Out of those hundreds less than 5% actually respond and about 1% actually results in sales. Because trade is so important I end up trading more than I play the game with the current system, losing hours of play because I can't purchase common commodities. Trading should NEVER occupy more time than playing the game, but in poe it really does.

We have a very fine balance now, where most of the game is available to you if you know what you're doing and take some time - even without trade - SSF. To beat the toughest bosses, you need to take advantage of all the tools available, even trade. I'm OK with that. A very OK balance. To think that this balance will remain if they make trade even more easy than it is, is naive at best.

- There is no fucking balance, the people who abuse the current market structure accumulate massive wealth in the first week of any league and purchase the best gear available in the game from those lucky enough to have it drop. Then they proceed to faceroll content and flip to maintain their wealth throughout the league. There are layers to economy and your naive perspective clearly betrays that you operate in the lower ones.

I'm not against trading. PoE needs trading, as a lot of players need their instant gratification, and they need o beat everything in a couple of days, even tho leagues are three months long. And I'm not even against an improvement t the current system. BUT; trade CAN be implemented in a way that would hurt/BREAK the game experience for a HUGE part of the player base.

- Trade is currently hurting and breaking a HUGE part of the player base, this game has some of the worst wealth disparity between players I have ever seen in any game and I've played plenty of MMOs with bigger bot problems and an integrated AH. Besides that most players quit a league two to three weeks in because they experience the content, acquire the items they need and hit an impassible wealth barrier that prevents any further MEANINGFUL progression.

I'm VERY glad that it's pretty obvious that GGG know this, and take their time - to find a solution that does NOT break the game for so many players.

My responses are in bold.

The current system kills market competition, people do not haggle, they expect to list an item and sell it for the price they set. Any interaction with them outside of that is usually met with refusal to trade or your offer being ignored. If this is the way that people function now it is a clear indicator that an AH would do nothing to change this system. It would however, close the current easy exploitation of the market and provide new players with a means to experience the game without going through the kind of trade experience that undoubtedly caused many to quit the game or relegate their play to SSF. The fact that SSF is a thing at all indicates how toxic the current system is.

I am really tired of seeing the same old responses against why trade needs to change in this game, built on laughable "this feels right" arguments for why it wouldn't work and paranoia about D3 which happens to be one of the worst arpgs I have ever played.

People have suggested an in hideout market which people have to physically visit to purchase items you have listed. I WANT THAT. It will allow people to reach the entire cross-section of the market instead of no-lifers and flippers controlling rates on goods. It would provide an easy means to exchange goods that is difficult to bot but allows players to exchange the currency they got for actual useful items. It will provide players with the means to mingle and show off their hideout or hold live auctions for goods, things that currently are impossible with trade chat and trading as it is now. There is no community in the current system, there is no quality of life in the current system, there is tons of scamming going on in it. So with all those downsides how can one possibly think that trade changes are not necessary? That trade is in a "critical condition", that it is TOO EASY.

What socializing do you get through current trading system? Copy/pasting message from poe.trade and then saying "thanks" ?
You already have enough tools for socializing: guilds, chat and noticeboard. Oh wait, the last one is filled with trade scams, BECAUSE THE TRADING SUCKS.

"

Ageless_Emperion wrote:

- There is no fucking balance, the people who abuse the current market structure accumulate massive wealth in the first week of any league and purchase the best gear available in the game from those lucky enough to have it drop. Then they proceed to faceroll content and flip to maintain their wealth throughout the league. There are layers to economy and your naive perspective clearly betrays that you operate in the lower ones.

Of course there is a balance. I'm not talking about the balance between not trading and trading. All your arguments seems to come from "I buy all my gear, I don't farm for gear, I farm currency to buy everything". And that's OK. But the balance I talk about, is the balance between dropped loot and in-game progression. You can reach T12-13-14 maps without "much" problems with the stuff you find. Hence; a nice balance between dropped loot and progression.

Of course everything will be a walk in the park if you choose to buy BiS all the time. You choose to do this, because you WANT to do this. So why whine about it? The game NEEDS to be "fun" for players that chooses NOT to buy everything all the time. Players that actually takes the time to PICK UP items that drops. There are TONNES of those players out there. You can say "but that is a choice - they choose not to take advantage of trade mechanics". And yes, they do. The same way you choose to use the system. And the main balance towards progression (from A-Z) needs to be somewhere in between.

And when you say "trade is already mandatory for PROPER progression", you are viewing it very subjective. Proper for YOU, isn't proper for everyone. I reached T12 maps in under a weak self found this league. I find that a very "proper" progression.

And yes there are layers to the economy. And yes, my less than 50 exalts may put me in the "lower" layer. What the fuck does that have to do with Anything? I DON'T CARE about the economy, I don't care where "I find myself in the layers", I don't care about wealth. If I want to play a game to become rich, I play the "real life" game. I play the game to progress, and I feel I can have a "MEANINGFULL" progression without the need of trade.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Ageless_Emperion wrote:

- There is no fucking balance, the people who abuse the current market structure accumulate massive wealth in the first week of any league and purchase the best gear available in the game from those lucky enough to have it drop. Then they proceed to faceroll content and flip to maintain their wealth throughout the league. There are layers to economy and your naive perspective clearly betrays that you operate in the lower ones.

Of course there is a balance. I'm not talking about the balance between not trading and trading. All your arguments seems to come from "I buy all my gear, I don't farm for gear, I farm currency to buy everything". And that's OK. But the balance I talk about, is the balance between dropped loot and in-game progression. You can reach T12-13-14 maps without "much" problems with the stuff you find. Hence; a nice balance between dropped loot and progression.

- My arguments come from having experienced both sides of the issue of progression and trading for years in this game and other online markets. When I was new I picked up every item, I'ed every rare and built retarded builds that could barely manage end game content. I could barely afford enough currency to put the simplest builds together. After a while I got better, limited my item pickups and got more wealth. Now I barely pick up anything and convert most of the items I get into currency because I know exactly how inefficient it is to play the other way. Not only is it ineffective it is also incredibly fatiguing sorting through mountains of garbage loot when you know the odds of getting something good. If you manage to delude yourself into enjoying the game as you play it, then keep at it and keep in mind the improvements people are arguing for here do not in any way impact your experience. Hell if you want to be a purist there is SSF just waiting for you. But do not bring this if I can manage it then everyone should mentality into this thread, that is the very train of thought that is keeping positive changes from happening.

Of course everything will be a walk in the park if you choose to buy BiS all the time. You choose to do this, because you WANT to do this. So why whine about it? The game NEEDS to be "fun" for players that chooses NOT to buy everything all the time. Players that actually takes the time to PICK UP items that drops. There are TONNES of those players out there. You can say "but that is a choice - they choose not to take advantage of trade mechanics". And yes, they do. The same way you choose to use the system. And the main balance towards progression (from A-Z) needs to be somewhere in between.

- There is no balance, the people who manage to gain the most wealth acquire the best equipment and dictate the difficulty of the content that is produced by the developers since they as a heavily invested party represent the greatest potential for purchasing mtx and packs. These people are being catered to, this system represents their interests, they thrive in it. Because of how broken this system is there is content in the game I am locked out of not because I am bad as a player but because I am not willing to make this game my job or sacrifice my morality for a quick profit.

And when you say "trade is already mandatory for PROPER progression", you are viewing it very subjective. Proper for YOU, isn't proper for everyone. I reached T12 maps in under a weak self found this league. I find that a very "proper" progression.

And yes there are layers to the economy. And yes, my less than 50 exalts may put me in the "lower" layer. What the fuck does that have to do with Anything? I DON'T CARE about the economy, I don't care where "I find myself in the layers", I don't care about wealth. If I want to play a game to become rich, I play the "real life" game.

- Ohhh snap, please don't be one of those pathetic people who need to pump their chest about how gud they manage irl while discussing a topic in an online forum about a game. It says that you have no foundation to stand on in an argument and that you are desperate enough to resort to a dick measuring contest to make your point. Whether you like it or not this is path of economics and trust me when I say I would love if it was not because I play games to play games and not be reminded how shit real economies are.

I play the game to progress, and I feel I can have a "MEANINGFULL" progression without the need of trade.

- If you feel this way play SSF and leave this discussion, the mode exists now as a fully supported experience for people who share your perspective. It is in fact perfect for how you want to experience the game. As I mentioned earlier these changes don't take anything away from you, you seem to be building an image of yourself as someone who has the reserve not to use features that are available to you that you do not approve of. So why are you here arguing against something that so many people on these forums want, what does it give you to deny changes that would improve their experience while having no effect on yours?

My responses are in bold.

"

Ageless_Emperion wrote:

If you manage to delude yourself into enjoying the game as you play it

Classy.

It's not about deluding. It's about playing. Enjoying. Experiencing. If you "have" to do something you "don't" like to enjoy the game, I'm not the one deluding myself.

"

Ageless_Emperion wrote:

- Ohhh snap, please don't be one of those pathetic people who need to pump their chest about how gud they manage irl while discussing a topic in an online forum about a game. It says that you have no foundation to stand on in an argument and that you are desperate enough to resort to a dick measuring contest to make your point. Whether you like it or not this is path of economics and trust me when I say I would love if it was not because I play games to play games and not be reminded how shit real economies are.

Please, don't be one of those people having to use first grade suppression techniques, and put yourself on some throne. I didn't say anything about my real life accomplishments. I didn't measure dicks. I just stated that if I was to spend several hours a day to become rich here or in RL, I would choose real life. But go a head, drag it all out of context.

"

Ageless_Emperion wrote:

- If you feel this way play SSF and leave this discussion, the mode exists now as a fully supported experience for people who share your perspective. It is in fact perfect for how you want to experience the game. As I mentioned earlier these changes don't take anything away from you, you seem to be building an image of yourself as someone who has the reserve not to use features that are available to you that you do not approve of. So why are you here arguing against something that so many people on these forums want, what does it give you to deny changes that would improve their experience while having no effect on yours?

Because at some point, I do trade. And I, as I've stated before, feel that in order to beat the hardest content, you should be forced to take advantage of every tool at your disposal, even trade. And THAT'S what I want trading to be; an end game tool, to take your build to the next/final level. Or a tool to open up new possibilities. Not the go-to for every time you ding a new level.

But I disagree heavily with your previous statement, when you said item availability has no link toward game balance. THAT'S why I'm here. It is naive as hell to think that easier trading, easier accumulation of gear does not affect the balance of the game, its monsters and bosses; the whole God damn progression. And that WILL affect my experience, even in a SSF league.

"

I'd actually prefer a marketplace like ragnarok online and everquest had. Could just go to a marketplace and have fun browsing different items everywhere.
The difference most people want is to have an offline/afk trading feature. So we don't have to wait days until someone pops online again.

With a market, it'd still be sufficiently difficult to find a good deal, but there'd be options at least.

^This.

"

I never played the Diablo games. I've never used Poe trade websites either. But I've played plenty of games with in-game, automated trading systems (AKA Auction Houses), and they've all had better trading experiences than what we see present in PoE. That's enough proof to me, that trade would be better WITH a version of an Auction House, than its current state.

The fact that this game advertises new league starts with "fresh economies" as a major selling point, is another nail in the coffin of the current economy, and the joke of standard's economy. This massive social experiment has failed in my eyes.

2 biggest benefits of an Auction House type system:
Instant Buyouts: prevent price manipulation (can't price low but never sell, just to make the price appear to be as low as you've listed. No convenient "oh it already sold, sorry." lies in the cases of false manipulation listings.)

Offline and Asynchronous trades: allow people who have jobs or play other games too, to list and sell items when they're not playing the game. Also allows people to remain in their activities while they're in the game, not requiring them to stop mapping, or abandon a labyrinth run, or switch leagues, just to make a chaos orb.

Those 2 benefits alone would be enough reason, to me, to implement it here.
Until there's in-game trade tools like this, I'll stay SSF.

And this^. Exactly my thoughts.


There are a million games with automated trading systems that offer a much, much better experience than PoE's. It's inconceivable why trading sucks so much at this point, I mean, can't they learn from any other games? Look at Ragnarok's marketplace...the game is 15 years old and offers a better trading experience than poe lol. What a joke. Yup, I'll stick with self found, thank you for nothing.

iv played many games with AHs in them as well as personal sell shops that you could open in game eather by buying a certen item and going to a hub city and siting around and waiting for people to look at your wares. or walk past you to check someone elses. theses systems do work. ( last chaos. eden eternal. twin saga. WoW. EcT just to name a few )

yeah ahs become over priced after a time and the currancys become pointless to have when you can sell a single super rare item for millions of in game currancy. BUT . atleast it makes access to items easyer for the casual players that dont have the time to grind a map or area insearch of that elusive item thay need to finish there build.

an AH in this game would help the noob base more then it would the old fan boys.

in the end im pro AH.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Classy.

It's not about deluding. It's about playing. Enjoying. Experiencing. If you "have" to do something you "don't" like to enjoy the game, I'm not the one deluding myself.

- That's a cool "opinion", I suggest you hold onto it. However, its only that and I am not required to acknowledge or share it.

Please, don't be one of those people having to use first grade suppression techniques, and put yourself on some throne. I didn't say anything about my real life accomplishments. I didn't measure dicks. I just stated that if I was to spend several hours a day to become rich here or in RL, I would choose real life. But go a head, drag it all out of context.

- If you didn't make an inflammatory statement first we wouldn't even be talking about this, also if it wasn't true it wouldn't really bother you would it.

Because at some point, I do trade. And I, as I've stated before, feel that in order to beat the hardest content, you should be forced to take advantage of every tool at your disposal, even trade. And THAT'S what I want trading to be; an end game tool, to take your build to the next/final level. Or a tool to open up new possibilities. Not the go-to for every time you ding a new level.

- The system was not designed this way and so far no one, not even the other people arguing against the auction house idea out of paranoia or stubbornness share this perspective with you. Not only that, but you seem to operate on the archaic premise that people actually constantly upgrade their gear as they level, giving them some sort of unfair boost and robbing them progression, they don't. They find the cheapest leveling gear and get to the point where their final build can equip everything at which point they do or attempt to acquire its components. When they spend hours or days grinding to that point with substandard gear they want the satisfaction of their build coming together, which they do not get because of the busted market system.

But I disagree heavily with your previous statement, when you said item availability has no link toward game balance. THAT'S why I'm here. It is naive as hell to think that easier trading, easier accumulation of gear does not affect the balance of the game, its monsters and bosses; the whole God damn progression. And that WILL affect my experience, even in a SSF league.

- I don't really care if you disagree with me on this, what you are saying is factually wrong and if that is THE REASON you are here I am happy to clarify for you why, so you can leave. Its very simple, the balancing of items in this game is not tied to how many of them are available to people playing, just because more people find and sell a shavs doesn't mean that GGG is going to in any way change the item. AVAILABILITY OF ITEMS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCING. Its simply not how balancing changes are handled for this property and it boggles my mind where you got that idea from. But you know, lets for a moment assume your faulty premise that item changes in the game depend how much of the item is dropped. Making it easier to distribute said item in the economy does not lead to more of it being there, the drop rates are fixed. And once again, trading changes will not affect your SSF experience, they can't, its not how the game is handled. Get over it.

All in all, congratulations on avoiding discussing anything that is actually wrong with the current system, because there is plenty wrong with it. I don't care if you don't like change which most of your arguments boil down to if they have any merit in them to begin with. Unless you have something constructive to add, our conversation is over.

"

Iamod wrote:

On the flip side of having an AH. I've met most of my friends on this game THROUGH trading and haggling. With an AH instead, there's no haggling(offering and counter offering) or any socializing whatosever.

On the flip side dont having an AH. Most people dont play poe anymore because of the trading system...

it spends to much time for people they play maybe 8 hours in a week! 4 hours of them they have to sell,trade or looking for some stuff. for them its an trading simulator and not a game.

its not 1999 anymore.....

the trading system how it is right now. SUX!

its unfriendly for the normal players!

"

kashyko wrote:

"

Iamod wrote:

On the flip side of having an AH. I've met most of my friends on this game THROUGH trading and haggling. With an AH instead, there's no haggling(offering and counter offering) or any socializing whatosever.

On the flip side dont having an AH. Most people dont play poe anymore because of the trading system...

it spends to much time for people they play maybe 8 hours in a week! 4 hours of them they have to sell,trade or looking for some stuff. for them its an trading simulator and not a game.

its not 1999 anymore.....

the trading system how it is right now. SUX!

its unfriendly for the normal players!

Only GGG can know how many accounts are idle more than 1, 2, or 3+ years for players who quit PoE because trading was so bad of an experience. Too many times of "seller is AFK"... I quit this shit!! GGG has to take those stats and weigh the monetary value of all those lost players and estimate how many would come back against how many current players are in the "trade is good right where it is now" camp that they might lose if they shifted to an asynchronous form of trading model (I still am against a full AH... too many bad memories of summer 2012 D3 playing with soaring inflated prices on top gear. All legit players lost back then... damn botters!). If GGG isn't clear on this they should take a poll and ask. I know a few that would come back and dust off their old account (3 years idle come this summer) and play with me (if multi-player lockstep doesn't lag us out).