Getting people to want to experience the labyrinth instead of just clearing it

Fun fact: The Labyrinth contains bathrooms. It is the only place in the game to have bathrooms.

in current game the only way to make people 'want' to do something is to make it a better Strand with easier boss

catering to these requests will turn this once tough game into scroller with autoclick..

"

CidAvadose wrote:

So you are saying that because the opponent is the map instead of the creatures it is somehow a different game?

I do not see much difference between timing and dodging of traps and timing and dodging of boss attacks, except that bosses can one hit KO you.

I know that getting better at timing/dodging in the labyrinth had a direct improvement of my timing/dodging outside the labyrinth.

If I do a lot of lab runs in sequence I have to "relearn" normal gameplay afterwards. For me lab is more like a different game played with the same character.

"

If I do a lot of lab runs in sequence I have to "relearn" normal gameplay afterwards. For me lab is more like a different game played with the same character.

I'm not saying that it isn't quite different from normal play, because it definitely is, what I said was

"

I do not see much difference between timing and dodging of traps and timing and dodging of boss attacks, except that bosses can one hit KO you.

Worded differently the skills(player not character)/reflexes learned by dodging and playing around traps are very useful when dodging and playing around boss attacks.

I was very happy to have a large area to practice these skills, instead of just boss battles, because Labyrinth traps are far more forgiving then bosses attacks. (As you can tell my play style/character build is not of the one-hit kill everything variety).

"

CidAvadose wrote:

After reading the anti-labyrinth threads, it seems like people feel the entire reward for the labyrinth is at the end, and if anything happens along the way, they have just wasted time.

Here's my suggestion. This is for the Merciless and uber labyrinths.

1) Labyrinth Level, Monster Rarity, and Atlas progress effect what maps can drop in the labyrinth.
Examples:
a) Merciless Labyrinth, killing a Rare, if your atlas is explored up to level 70 maps, they could drop.
b) Uber Labyrinth, Killing a magic, if your atlas is explored up to level 76 maps, they could drop

Now people want to kill creatures in the labyrinth

2) Have special labyrinth chests have a map drop bias

Now people want to go out of there way to do trap gauntlets and find those chests

3) Have dark shrines increase the level of the labyrinth with respect to map drops

Now people want to find and activate dark shrines

A note: I am not suggesting you could get maps not in your atlas this way; that would take away from running maps. Merely if you run out of maps you can use the labyrinth to jump start your collection of maps back up for exploration instead of starting back with grinding level 68 maps.

The traps/labyrinth become the "price" for map drops (of the non-level 68 variety) outside of maps. Also the more you explore the labyrinth (the more lost you get) the more and better maps you could get.

Under this system if a person has to spend a long time getting to the end point, most likely they have more maps to show for it, then a person who speed ran to the end point. If you get lost, you stand a chance of finding more maps or getting better ones. Making people happy the the labyrinth is a labyrinth and not the ledge.

I'm one of those folks that have had discussions with you regarding the lab. While I wouldn't describe myself as "anti-lab", I'm part of the demographic that thinks the lab is fine how it is, just take the ascension out and move to another mechanic and truly make lab optional.

Lab is great for farming. A lot of stuff drops in lab and the end rewards are great if you are farming items/enchants.

It's a pain in the nuts however if you just want to get those ascension points on your character and move on to the mapping aspect. In other words lab is great if that is what you want to do, but it sucks if it's not.

Honestly, the ascension doesn't even really feel like it belongs their anyway. It's just sort of "stuck in at the end".

I presume this might be the case because it's simply a placeholder for the upcoming content but GGG has a history of making things like this part of the core mechanic, and I, along with a few others really don't want to see this as part of the core mechanic of the game.

Personally I agree that the Ascendancy points feel out of place in the lab.

I also don't know anywhere else they should be.

GGGs move to the 10 act system where even the resistance decrease where be part of the story-line makes it more important then ever to make something as monumental as the ascendancy points not be given at a level advancement.

Perhaps they they should be given at the end of each difficulty (where the resistances go up). However unless they make the bosses before very very difficult (as in extreme difficulty increase) it still wouldn't feel earned (or even make sense without something bestowing it one you).

I bet GGG also doesn't know where to put them.

"

CidAvadose wrote:

"

If I do a lot of lab runs in sequence I have to "relearn" normal gameplay afterwards. For me lab is more like a different game played with the same character.

I'm not saying that it isn't quite different from normal play, because it definitely is, what I said was

"

I do not see much difference between timing and dodging of traps and timing and dodging of boss attacks, except that bosses can one hit KO you.

Worded differently the skills(player not character)/reflexes learned by dodging and playing around traps are very useful when dodging and playing around boss attacks.

I was very happy to have a large area to practice these skills, instead of just boss battles, because Labyrinth traps are far more forgiving then bosses attacks. (As you can tell my play style/character build is not of the one-hit kill everything variety).

My experience is very different: Traps are predictable and dont require looking at "tells". The most efficient way of dealing with them is to build so that they can be brute forced. But traps have special rules so building vs traps is different from building vs boss. There are very simplistic special "rules" for dealing with traps - like dont run with a trap. Nonetheless traps require constant concentration. And the most important thing is to always look at life globe. Sometimes the degen traps dont even make a noise which can lead to stealth death if not looking at life. But I already had learned that habit (look at life most of the time) so this was not new for me. New was the hip hop rythm pattern type gameplay. I am not aware of having learned anything notable for boss fights from trap gameplay. Boss fights are more about reaction and traps about prediction.

I'll be honest, from the details of your comments, you started at a much higher skill level then I did.

I do not really have the reflexes or skill to reach top levels of being reactive. I have to rely on predictive.

Running into trap set-ups that I had never seen before and charging into them, then responding to the next trap that wasn't on the screen yet, while still dodging the previous is, at least to me, reactive.

I find it more getting used to setting timings. How long does a given action take? Is that long enough for me to dodge out of the way or should I take it and prepare a health potion?

As I said before your starting skill level was clearly on a higher level then mine, so I can see why the traps would not teach you the same things as me.

Edit:
Actually I now realize the difference between what we too are saying. If I have to walk through, stopping often, in a trap gauntlet, I feel like I failed. I ran the trails repeated till I could run through trap gauntlets, only stopping when I am unsure how to proceed.

Walking through the labyrinth would be tedious.

Also I admit I have the build (since I tend to play adamantine bb-guns instead of glass cannons) that I could ignore most traps in the labyrinth. However I take it as an insult whenever I take any amount of damage and ponder again and again on how to take less.

This quick movement at close range, where I am assuming I am taking a certain about of damage and assessing it, it just like fighting a boss as a MELEE character. Bosses get free "basic" attacks against melee characters. Alot of bosses attacks, when in melee ranged, cannot be dodged. Hence as a melee character I am always looking at my health total, just as you described you do in the labyrinth.

Edit2:
I lack the fine motor control (health reason) to "walk" through traps, hence it never occurred to me that that was an option.

I only use an area melee attack (Sweep), because I like the precision control to click on enemies that are moving about.

"

CidAvadose wrote:

Running into trap set-ups that I had never seen before and charging into them, then responding to the next trap that wasn't on the screen yet, while still dodging the previous is, at least to me, reactive.

Doing it in this manner is reactive. But I painstakingly avoided these situations early on by running into the gauntlet and then running back - to get vision of the "unknown". Not trusting that there is a way out or a safe spot - I didnt know the rules/layouts yet. Then plan ahead. Etc. Has to do with me only doing it in HC though. If I would have exercised in SC I would probably have approached it in a similar yolo-reactive manner.

"

CidAvadose wrote:

As I said before your starting skill level was clearly on a higher level then mine, so I can see why the traps would not teach you the same things as me.

My "starting skill level" for traps was very low. For normal/other gameplay however it was much higher.