Donald Trump and US politics

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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deathflower wrote:

So People realise there is socialists on the left, not just liberals. The left in America is coalition, you also sharing it with libertarians, Neocons, Centrists, Moderates, progressives, economic left, cultural left, Democratic Socialists, Social liberalists and SJWs, etc.

Libertarians and centrists are cool, but the right has them too. Moderates are the shitty version of centrists; if centrists are like the D&D characters that go true neutral because they've explored the various alignments and rejected them, moderates are like the characters that are true neutral only because their cowardice and willful ignorance makes them non-committal. Neocon is a euphemism for MIC shill. Economic left is a euphemism for Communist. SJW is a euphemism for racist sexist bigot, and you list them as allies anyway. The liberals you have left find themselves surrounded by leftists opposed to liberalism.

Your coalition sucks bad enough that all the good people left it a year ago, either as H.A. Goodman-esque separatists or more likely as right-allied centrists. And those within your alliance have no qualms calling either of these groups hate-enablers or similar libel.

It is kinda your coalition. Your country, not mine.

These people are cowards. People that care more about protecting their reputation than about defending the people and their causes. These people that scrambled for recognized standard of justice or goodness and scatter shirking their duty to uphold it. People that want to feel morally good about themselves. People that want Credit for their morality but does nothing to deserve them.

The left main claim to political legitimacy is a moral claim. The left has quietly abandoned their ideals. If The left does not stand for their moral ideologies, then just what in this world does they stand for? They are morally bankrupt. It is a tragedy if you have to laugh at the side that is slightly worse. 50 steps laughing at 100 steps as they say.

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鬼殺し wrote:

How's all that #winning going, America? Sick of it yet?

I hope not, because getting sick over there is about to get even more expensive. LOL.

That's not funny. People will die because of that...

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faerwin wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

How's all that #winning going, America? Sick of it yet?

I hope not, because getting sick over there is about to get even more expensive. LOL.

That's not funny. People will die because of that...

Why not? Their premium will probably go up. Laughing doesn't change that. It represent a significant conflict between our comparatively positive evaluation of our situation and the negative evaluation of the other person. It is a disputable human learning process. We are not responsible for eliciting their misfortune.

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deathflower wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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deathflower wrote:

So People realise there is socialists on the left, not just liberals. The left in America is coalition, you also sharing it with libertarians, Neocons, Centrists, Moderates, progressives, economic left, cultural left, Democratic Socialists, Social liberalists and SJWs, etc.

Libertarians and centrists are cool, but the right has them too. Moderates are the shitty version of centrists; if centrists are like the D&D characters that go true neutral because they've explored the various alignments and rejected them, moderates are like the characters that are true neutral only because their cowardice and willful ignorance makes them non-committal. Neocon is a euphemism for MIC shill. Economic left is a euphemism for Communist. SJW is a euphemism for racist sexist bigot, and you list them as allies anyway. The liberals you have left find themselves surrounded by leftists opposed to liberalism.

Your coalition sucks bad enough that all the good people left it a year ago, either as H.A. Goodman-esque separatists or more likely as right-allied centrists. And those within your alliance have no qualms calling either of these groups hate-enablers or similar libel.

It is kinda your coalition. Your country, not mine.

These people are cowards. People that care more about protecting their reputation than about defending the people and their causes. These people that scrambled for recognized standard of justice or goodness and scatter shirking their duty to uphold it. People that want to feel morally good about themselves. People that want Credit for their morality but does nothing to deserve them.

The left main claim to political legitimacy is a moral claim. The left has quietly abandoned their ideals. If The left does not stand for their moral ideologies, then just what in this world does they stand for? They are morally bankrupt. It is a tragedy if you have to laugh at the side that is slightly worse. 50 steps laughing at 100 steps as they say.

Well, yes. The steal of the Democratic nomination from Bernie was the proof of moral bankruptcy, and there was a lot during Obama to raise suspicion.

I know a lot on the right who follow this thread don't like admitting this, but this corruption is not intrinsic to the Left, it's merely situational. The same corporations, especially military and banking interests, that had long infiltrated the GOP achieved a uniparty in spreading their infection to the American Left. Clinton was their shameless agent. Saying she truly represents the values of the populist Left is just as disingenuous as saying "neoconservatives" like Bush and McCain represented the values of the populist Right.

Sorry, but corporate shilling and interventionist warmongering isn't Left or Right, because either would assume the interests of the base are served. The only platform of the "neocon" is feels and lies, because they have nothing to sell the people that the people want, and they want nothing that the people would consciously allow. That's why neocons exist in both parties; it's not a matter of issues, it's a matter of co-opting movements and spreading feels.

Last year, as Scott Adams put it, Trump hollowed out the GOP and wore it as a skin. I disagree slightly — the GOP had been hollowed out and used as a skin over a decade prior. But he did steal the skin, and it wasn't hard to wear because the gutting had already been done for him. So he ran a kind of Bannonesque right-populism while the Left ran... no one at all. Just the military-industrial complex in a Democrat skin, versus an eccentric vaguely-rightwing random they had the hubris to elevate to nomination.

I don't know what will happen next, but the ground is fertile right now for anyone sufficiently charismatic to run as a Democrat in 2020 and rewrite the entire party platform with their own brand of left-populism, and the only thing that could stop them is a repeat of 2016's nomination-stealing... which can be made much more difficult this time with the appropriate grassroots activism. That's why I'm not confident in Trump winning in 2020 — I see such a hollow and in a way non-existent Left that I could imagine virtually anyone, advocating virtually anything, filling the vacuum that is the DNC.

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deathflower wrote:

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faerwin wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

How's all that #winning going, America? Sick of it yet?

I hope not, because getting sick over there is about to get even more expensive. LOL.

That's not funny. People will die because of that...

Why not? Their premium will probably go up. Laughing doesn't change that. It represent a significant conflict between our comparatively positive evaluation of our situation and the negative evaluation of the other person. It is a disputable human learning process. We are not responsible for eliciting their misfortune.

It's like laughing at people because they are crippled. Imagine for a moment that you are someone that's crippled (say, missing a leg) and you overhear (or "overread") someone mocking crippled people because they aren't fully functional. You might be sad, angered, frustrated, feel depressive or something else but at any rate, it will be a negative experience for you. The same go for someone that will lose their health coverage if their life depends on it.

Now, it is unlikely that such a person will read that comment but being vocal about such thing often lead to other people actively mimicking these free attacks (we can see this very pattern in this very thread) and it can become a trend (history saw it many MANY times).

It might seems like something silly and without consequences but I bet the same was thought about jokes on homosexual, transgenders, jews, blacks, asians, poor and/or mentally retarded people. Laughing at them caused normalization of the act and the basis of discrimination. Discrimination then turns to resentment and go all the way to hate.

Laughing at the misery/condition of someone, especially if it's no fault of his own, is not appropriate.


Now, if Charan would simply have laughed at people that voted for Trump because they kind allowed this to happen, that would be different. But he's laughing at the collateral damage.

On the one hand, unaffordable healthcare is indeed not a laughing matter.

On the other hand, to pretend that the so-called Affordable Care Act was anything other than a huge step backwards in that regard would be laughable if it weren't so grave a matter. Why don't those on the Left realize yet that Big Pharma played them?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

On the one hand, unaffordable healthcare is indeed not a laughing matter.

On the other hand, to pretend that the so-called Affordable Care Act was anything other than a huge step backwards in that regard would be laughable if it weren't so grave a matter. Why don't those on the Left realize yet that Big Pharma played them?

I don't know the exact details on the obamacare or how the US health insurance work. I do know however that the repeal of Obamacare will makes the lives of tens of thousands much more miserable.

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faerwin wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

On the one hand, unaffordable healthcare is indeed not a laughing matter.

On the other hand, to pretend that the so-called Affordable Care Act was anything other than a huge step backwards in that regard would be laughable if it weren't so grave a matter. Why don't those on the Left realize yet that Big Pharma played them?

I don't know the exact details on the obamacare or how the US health insurance work. I do know however that the repeal of Obamacare will makes the lives of tens of thousands much more miserable.

I disagree. I can kinda understand someone arguing for single-payer; it wouldn't be better than before Obamacare, but it would be better than Obamacare. I can understand wanting to go back to before Obamacare, although in many ways the damage is already done and legislation cannot fix it. But what I cannot fathom is how people continue to defend what is functionally the federal sanction of private health insurance monopolies, complete with mandatory participation, and has now for years obviously been.

Obamacare is as "left-wing" as the Goldman Sachs bailout.

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faerwin wrote:

It's like laughing at people because they are crippled. Imagine for a moment that you are someone that's crippled (say, missing a leg) and you overhear (or "overread") someone mocking crippled people because they aren't fully functional. You might be sad, angered, frustrated, feel depressive or something else but at any rate, it will be a negative experience for you. The same go for someone that will lose their health coverage if their life depends on it.

Now, it is unlikely that such a person will read that comment but being vocal about such thing often lead to other people actively mimicking these free attacks (we can see this very pattern in this very thread) and it can become a trend (history saw it many MANY times).

It might seems like something silly and without consequences but I bet the same was thought about jokes on homosexual, transgenders, jews, blacks, asians, poor and/or mentally retarded people. Laughing at them caused normalization of the act and the basis of discrimination. Discrimination then turns to resentment and go all the way to hate.

Laughing at the misery/condition of someone, especially if it's no fault of his own, is not appropriate.


Now, if Charan would simply have laughed at people that voted for Trump because they kind allowed this to happen, that would be different. But he's laughing at the collateral damage.

I will laugh whenever I want. Thank you very much. What of it. You can stop yourself from laughing but you can't stop me from doing it. People get laugh at all the time from all the various things in life, sometime more, sometime less. Trying to protecting them from their own inadequacy isn't solving the problem. They will still be laugh at. People laugh at people's misfortune. Some people think it is mean and some people will continue doing it. It is mean but Shaming people to Control Others just as morally wrong.

If the Crippled is bullied, they should stand up for themselves, or seek help. They need to have the mental fortitude stand up for themselves or shout insults to my face, ability to handle the situation, access to help. Not liberal busybodies standing up for them all their life and shaming people. Social justice busybodies doesn't sell.

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faerwin wrote:

I don't see how you can argue that conservatism is the way to go for individual freedom. A progressive society is what we need. Now, you might have a different idea of progression than me so I'll explain my view.

Progress is the act of improving one self and the society in a way that will improve the lives of the citizens on the short, medium and long term. That said, sometimes, you need to have a short term sacrifice (in term of comfort, not lives), to have a better long term/having more people able to benefit.

A good example of this is the phasing out of the coal and oil power plants in favor of solar, nuclear or wind power plants. Phasing them out by force do hurt towns that depend(ed) on those for their own economy but refusing to remove them hurts the lives of everyone due to increased health hazards from smoke particles, pollution and decreased quality of air. There's also the contribution to global warming.

The historical record for progressives is full of little tiny mistakes. A small oops here and there, like forced sterilizations, full blown eugenics and slavery.

Allowing people to improve themselves is good. Providing equal opportunity for people to succeed is good. Forcing people is bad.

Progressives are all about using the force - legal force.