We are seeing first hand why GGG needs to step in..

Government stepping in is worst thing ever makes you weak and soft. Not to mention they steal money/rights from citizens and enrich their cronies. Notice bigger govt has gotten more rich poor gap divide? As a general rule I'm against any form of intervention.

Do I like it some of these scummy behavior no but freedom is not risk free. Make sound trades. Buyer beware etc.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

Because you took a game design class and have all the numbers in front of you.


No your claims are dismissed because everything GGG has done has shown that they are being successful with what they are doing. They have better numbers across the board. More players = more money. Money ultimately trumps everything no matter what Chris Wilson says in his PR shenanigans.


You are simply being a petulant spoiled brat, as bad as the lab complainers. I despise the lab, and I think it's utterly stupid. However, I still do it and I don't constantly cry about it like you are in this thread and other threads for whatever reason. The game isn't 'casualized'. If you think this game is 'casualized' then the new DotA 2 patch must be full on idiot mode.

I no more have the numbers in front of me then you do. Nor do I need an expertise in design to understand that casual games have a cost, especially if you want to claim "spiritual successor to d2" you must ask yourself if you've went too far, if you've given away power and item accessibility, because the game is harder then others, instead of making information more easily accessible.

If that money comes at the cost of core principles, then GGG is no better then any other game dev. Time will tell if that is true or not, but the appearance is that Chris says one thing and the games direction and design says another.


Except the lab you can just suck it up and work through it, I could suck up and play a worst game, but the lab takes a fraction of someones playtime, while my issues are present throughout my whole game experience. The new dota 2 patch adds another level of complexity, so not exactly sure how you think its more casual when there is now more things to theorycraft and adjust for.

So just so its clear, the issues people have with the lab are a fraction of importance compared to core issues of the game, which includes massive power creep and gear acquisition to start off with, you know some of the more important aspects of ARPG games

1) Don't talk DotA 2 to me, the new patch makes it extremely casual. I play at the 6k+ level meaning I'm playing top flight public players and pros. 'Theorycrafting' is silly especially considering the XP/Gold changes has made laning phase almost non-existent at this point, and the meta literally comes down to cluster fuck teamfights and pray you have the stronger AoE/disables at this point.

2) GGG clearly doesn't give a fuck about you. Evidence? Game's coming to Xbox one. Suck it up, get over it. And yes, GGG has posted numbers. Every league they make the game 'easier' according to you. Every league the game has more and more players, and higher levels of player retention. Hrm. Could be a coincidence. Could not be (cough, it's not).

3) You clearly have no responsibilities outside of yourself if you think money doesn't matter and that you should always stick to your core principals when designing games. People like you are the exact reasons why so many game developers quit in the first place, because you are petulant spoiled entitled brats who have literally no idea how game development actually works, and the process behind it. I criticized GGG in the past on many things, ranging from QA, poor network code, lack of balance, etc. but I would never criticize GGG for doing things that make them money. Ultimately in the end, this is a business, and GGG has to provide for their families and employees. Those people will always and ultimately come first before some arrogant wannabe elitist like you.

4) A fraction of the population will ever see top tier items like Shavs or Disfavour. Please, stop. You're making it sound like it's reigning Atziri Disfavours everywhere when that is clearly not the case. This isn't D3 where everyone literally gets a free set.

Dont price items in Exalts and there be no problems in Choas/Exalt manipulations.
Chaos is way more used curency and Exalt is rare but even more so actualy spended.
Game balance is broken in my opinion, it also make market have same simtoms.

GGG make this pay to win decision and now you can do this wierd stufs with impunity and easier more then ever before. To be honest, my opinion is that PoE dont even have trading, it have give item option becouse aperantly scaming = trade. In game universe there whas never option to shop end game items att this rate and what not, its what most MMO use to make money and when you add to it a PTW premium stash tabs you just loking att mirror (3d party RMT).
Nobady is asociated with nobady as they clame but they all drink wather from same well so nobady is wiling to spit into it.
Curently is see PoE in wery volotile state, know it to well to not be distracted but its not something i whant to look att all.

"

allbusiness wrote:

1) Don't talk DotA 2 to me, the new patch makes it extremely casual. I play at the 6k+ level meaning I'm playing top flight public players and pros. 'Theorycrafting' is silly especially considering the XP/Gold changes has made laning phase almost non-existent at this point, and the meta literally comes down to cluster fuck teamfights and pray you have the stronger AoE/disables at this point.

2) GGG clearly doesn't give a fuck about you. Evidence? Game's coming to Xbox one. Suck it up, get over it. And yes, GGG has posted numbers. Every league they make the game 'easier' according to you. Every league the game has more and more players, and higher levels of player retention. Hrm. Could be a coincidence. Could not be (cough, it's not).

3) You clearly have no responsibilities outside of yourself if you think money doesn't matter and that you should always stick to your core principals when designing games. People like you are the exact reasons why so many game developers quit in the first place, because you are petulant spoiled entitled brats who have literally no idea how game development actually works, and the process behind it. I criticized GGG in the past on many things, ranging from QA, poor network code, lack of balance, etc. but I would never criticize GGG for doing things that make them money. Ultimately in the end, this is a business, and GGG has to provide for their families and employees. Those people will always and ultimately come first before some arrogant wannabe elitist like you.

4) A fraction of the population will ever see top tier items like Shavs or Disfavour. Please, stop. You're making it sound like it's reigning Atziri Disfavours everywhere when that is clearly not the case. This isn't D3 where everyone literally gets a free set.

1) Ok then I won't, just that you view it as a more casual approach, while others view it as icefrog adding a way to ensure that heros have the proper spikes in power that was not possible to balance around as "easily" as it is now. Example would be snowballing QOP now has "immortal mode" as people like to say with level 25 and blademail.

2) I actually think this is funny, of all the people you think would be upset about the console thing you would think it would be me right? I guess my line of thinking is that if GGG is making a console version with a separate balance set and realm, then they can make it more casual and pull in the casual reigns of the PC realm. Its not coincidence, its GGG giving players more and more, which people love this instant gratification thing, eventually though people will get sick of it, even with new "content", as seen with what happened to D3, eventually GGG will run out of interesting ways to power creep the game and thats why its important to take a step back in 3.0 for the longevity of the game. The alternative is that GGG redoes the skill tree and increases max level and readjust accordingly.

3) I don't need to have responsibilities to understand that selling a product to later change it to something unrecongizable to those that supported your design, when you needed it the most should far outweigh massively expanding the team. Ima brat, but I know if you make a grindy ARPG game and sell it as such, you can't just increase it to D3 of drop rates and power and expect the people that supported you to be OK with it. Again, I'm entitled to my point of view, disagree with it if you want, but name calling is unnecessary.

A) Not criticizing them for making the game less fun, because they get a bigger paycheck? That is what companies like blizzard do to cater to the masses and answer to stock holders, that isn't something an "indie" company does.

4) Dude faction this fraction that, fuckoff I don't give a fuck if casuals don't get a fucking shavs or disfavor, these are things to work towards and if they don't putforth the effort to get them, then they should never get such items, however the required effort now is far too little investment. From a "design perspective" the game has moved the most rewarding experience to be one that just does fucking t11 maps in linear fashion fast, instead of running t15-16 maps, which should overall be more rewarding, but nope.

A) This isn't d3 where everyone gets free unique items, but this is D3 where power acquisition and other powerful gear is easier to access. If anything AC classes alone give more power then any set of gear you can get in the game, D3 has nothing even comparable in terms of player power increase.

Well they missed a beautiful opportunity to increase the EXP/loot availability for those at least 5-10 last levels and linking it more to tiers, but they went instead with an EXP penalty that renders chaining tier 10-12 the fastest and safest leveling experience...

Imagine the game with an increased difficulty due to more dangerous white monsters, smaller packs, smarter mechanics, traps that complement them and boss fights worth to remember when you could level post 90 up to 95 only in tier 11-13 and post 95 only in tier 14-16 working for it gradually, and maybe even increase the chance for better loot there - keep tier 1 uniques rare enough, but stop with those masses of leveling uniques/tier 1-6 maps that drop on red tier bosses...

They should make endgame content feel worthwhile, and give it more meaning... I still consider myself a casual n00b hoarder that plays the game for fun, but if they push the dial on harsher difficulty, they should also push the dial for better EXP/loot too, so even us would strive to reach endgame content...

"

3) You clearly have no responsibilities outside of yourself if you think money doesn't matter and that you should always stick to your core principals when designing games. People like you are the exact reasons why so many game developers quit in the first place, because you are petulant spoiled entitled brats who have literally no idea how game development actually works, and the process behind it. I criticized GGG in the past on many things, ranging from QA, poor network code, lack of balance, etc. but I would never criticize GGG for doing things that make them money. Ultimately in the end, this is a business, and GGG has to provide for their families and employees. Those people will always and ultimately come first before some arrogant wannabe elitist like you.

You have absolute no clue how it works...money destroys everything.
The best games ever made were produced by people who want to create a great game out of love to gaming and not to make money. If you have succes the money comes from alone but when it gets to much big companys step in and buy everything out.

So many developers quit cause the way the new companys are going is not what they want.
Biggest example here will be Blizzard North which was the starting of the end of blizzard.


Other example Ubi Soft boss once said, when i first stepped in my first action was to take away the fun out of progamming. We want to get money and dont want to bring fun and joy to the people...

Or an example out of my region. Pirahnabytes, after they forced the progammers to push the game out way to early and released a ton of crap these progammers quit theyr company and worked for free on a community patch which made these game really great for free....

Or look at the great mobas which all were created totally free by people who just love games. Icefrog didnt see any cent in the first days for dota it was just a wc3 mod produced by people who just love gaming...

Or counterstrike or every other real succesfull mod produced by fans complete free just while they loved it....

A game is like a child for the programmer he loves it and wants it to be perfect. But i see you have no experience with real gaming or creating real good games.

Game development these days is just bring the huge money for low costs.

So you are the capitalist elitist who not only ruins our joy on great games but people like you ruin the whole world.

"

Ueblesding wrote:

So you are the capitalist elitist who not only ruins our joy on great games but people like you ruin the whole world.

Brings a tear to my eye.

"

Ueblesding wrote:

"

3) You clearly have no responsibilities outside of yourself if you think money doesn't matter and that you should always stick to your core principals when designing games. People like you are the exact reasons why so many game developers quit in the first place, because you are petulant spoiled entitled brats who have literally no idea how game development actually works, and the process behind it. I criticized GGG in the past on many things, ranging from QA, poor network code, lack of balance, etc. but I would never criticize GGG for doing things that make them money. Ultimately in the end, this is a business, and GGG has to provide for their families and employees. Those people will always and ultimately come first before some arrogant wannabe elitist like you.

You have absolute no clue how it works...money destroys everything.
The best games ever made were produced by people who want to create a great game out of love to gaming and not to make money. If you have succes the money comes from alone but when it gets to much big companys step in and buy everything out.

So many developers quit cause the way the new companys are going is not what they want.
Biggest example here will be Blizzard North which was the starting of the end of blizzard.


Other example Ubi Soft boss once said, when i first stepped in my first action was to take away the fun out of progamming. We want to get money and dont want to bring fun and joy to the people...

Or an example out of my region. Pirahnabytes, after they forced the progammers to push the game out way to early and released a ton of crap these progammers quit theyr company and worked for free on a community patch which made these game really great for free....

Or look at the great mobas which all were created totally free by people who just love games. Icefrog didnt see any cent in the first days for dota it was just a wc3 mod produced by people who just love gaming...

Or counterstrike or every other real succesfull mod produced by fans complete free just while they loved it....

A game is like a child for the programmer he loves it and wants it to be perfect. But i see you have no experience with real gaming or creating real good games.

Game development these days is just bring the huge money for low costs.

So you are the capitalist elitist who not only ruins our joy on great games but people like you ruin the whole world.

Without capitalism you wouldn't even have a job. You're probably some hippie ass kid who thinks that the world simply works because of dreams and goals, and anything can be accomplished with hardwork, love, and dedication. Bullshit. That's not the real world. Try getting a job and not living in your mom's basement before insulting someone. And by a real job, I'm talking about an actual salaried job where you have actual benefits, and not working somewhere flipping burgers or waiting tables.



Two, I've been involved in game development before, and I'm telling you right now in real world situations every company outside of Valve who just sits on a literal gold mine of the Steam platform has to make concessions and sacrifices out of necessity. Not everyone has the luxury of Valve and Blizzard with the ability to sit around and polish, think of shit up, and try and make the greatest best game possible. GGG is neither of them, doesn't have the resources of either of them, so why anyone criticizes them for attempting to expand their game and bring in more income is beyond me.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

1) Don't talk DotA 2 to me, the new patch makes it extremely casual. I play at the 6k+ level meaning I'm playing top flight public players and pros. 'Theorycrafting' is silly especially considering the XP/Gold changes has made laning phase almost non-existent at this point, and the meta literally comes down to cluster fuck teamfights and pray you have the stronger AoE/disables at this point.

2) GGG clearly doesn't give a fuck about you. Evidence? Game's coming to Xbox one. Suck it up, get over it. And yes, GGG has posted numbers. Every league they make the game 'easier' according to you. Every league the game has more and more players, and higher levels of player retention. Hrm. Could be a coincidence. Could not be (cough, it's not).

3) You clearly have no responsibilities outside of yourself if you think money doesn't matter and that you should always stick to your core principals when designing games. People like you are the exact reasons why so many game developers quit in the first place, because you are petulant spoiled entitled brats who have literally no idea how game development actually works, and the process behind it. I criticized GGG in the past on many things, ranging from QA, poor network code, lack of balance, etc. but I would never criticize GGG for doing things that make them money. Ultimately in the end, this is a business, and GGG has to provide for their families and employees. Those people will always and ultimately come first before some arrogant wannabe elitist like you.

4) A fraction of the population will ever see top tier items like Shavs or Disfavour. Please, stop. You're making it sound like it's reigning Atziri Disfavours everywhere when that is clearly not the case. This isn't D3 where everyone literally gets a free set.

1) Ok then I won't, just that you view it as a more casual approach, while others view it as icefrog adding a way to ensure that heros have the proper spikes in power that was not possible to balance around as "easily" as it is now. Example would be snowballing QOP now has "immortal mode" as people like to say with level 25 and blademail.

2) I actually think this is funny, of all the people you think would be upset about the console thing you would think it would be me right? I guess my line of thinking is that if GGG is making a console version with a separate balance set and realm, then they can make it more casual and pull in the casual reigns of the PC realm. Its not coincidence, its GGG giving players more and more, which people love this instant gratification thing, eventually though people will get sick of it, even with new "content", as seen with what happened to D3, eventually GGG will run out of interesting ways to power creep the game and thats why its important to take a step back in 3.0 for the longevity of the game. The alternative is that GGG redoes the skill tree and increases max level and readjust accordingly.

3) I don't need to have responsibilities to understand that selling a product to later change it to something unrecongizable to those that supported your design, when you needed it the most should far outweigh massively expanding the team. Ima brat, but I know if you make a grindy ARPG game and sell it as such, you can't just increase it to D3 of drop rates and power and expect the people that supported you to be OK with it. Again, I'm entitled to my point of view, disagree with it if you want, but name calling is unnecessary.

A) Not criticizing them for making the game less fun, because they get a bigger paycheck? That is what companies like blizzard do to cater to the masses and answer to stock holders, that isn't something an "indie" company does.

4) Dude faction this fraction that, fuckoff I don't give a fuck if casuals don't get a fucking shavs or disfavor, these are things to work towards and if they don't putforth the effort to get them, then they should never get such items, however the required effort now is far too little investment. From a "design perspective" the game has moved the most rewarding experience to be one that just does fucking t11 maps in linear fashion fast, instead of running t15-16 maps, which should overall be more rewarding, but nope.

A) This isn't d3 where everyone gets free unique items, but this is D3 where power acquisition and other powerful gear is easier to access. If anything AC classes alone give more power then any set of gear you can get in the game, D3 has nothing even comparable in terms of player power increase.

A) The fact that you are even talking about QoP alone has already discredited anything you have to say regarding DotA. QoP is a bottom tier trash hero even after the changes.

B) People are having fun, GGG is making money. Pretty sure they could give two shits about what you think.

C) You don't make great games without money. As much as people like to praise Valve, do remember Valve has an almost complete monopoly over online video game distribution. Valve makes great games because they have the luxury of time and money on their side, unlike many other companies. Other companies have to make sacrifices somewhere.

D) 'I don't give a fuck about casuals' already shows how much of an [Removed by Support] you actually are, despite the fact that you are unable to actually complete the hard content in this game in the hardest mode (HC). And no, Ascendancy nodes are equivalent of anywhere from 25-30 nodes at best. D3 sets give you a power increase of well over 2000% easily.


So yeah, you are actually a [Removed by Support] who believes that everything should be your way and fuck everyone else. This game only survives if you have money flowing through. No money, no game development. Just stop, GGG is in this to make money, bottom line. It's a job that they love, but they can't do it without money. And in order to expand and continue to develop, they need MORE money. Welcome to the bottom line of any industry.