What is the MINIMUM PvP needs? (ignore balance)

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ocd_xana wrote:

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1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

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lapiz wrote:

no offence lib but that was officially the most useless post of 2017

mulla calling someone a pussy would probably have been more helpful

Mulla calling someone pussy, is always helpful.

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IceDeal wrote:

All this text about balance and not a single word about secondary damages and trigger gem, not expected at all ^^

I'm guessing, you can't really read inbetween the lines, as in, What damage type are secondary damage and trigger gems? That's right, Elemental and spells.

Most other problems has already been highlighted, there's no need for double post.

Also, is this your least offensive comment to me yet? Disappointing, Relowe is dethroning you. Or are you slowly falling for me?

I think if he wanted to insult you, he could imply that the only reason you use EA is because you're not actually good the game from a skill-based perspective and that you use the skill as a crutch. Or that you probably don't know as much as you say you do, and use the Arctic Armor + aura buffs idea of yours as possible evidence. If he wanted to be insulting, he'd say that kind of stuff. But he didn't, he just pointed out that you missed a couple of points, that's all :) IceDeal is just a friendly neighborhood PVPer/part-time manager at Chili's.

Should also mention that Bear Trap has secondary damage and it's not elemental or spell damage, and doesn't benefit from modifiers to either of those. Valve pls nerf secondary damage

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Márkusz wrote:

Lib, I can't agree with most of your suggestions.

Immunities could be indeed improved, but maybe not with an overall cap, but nerfing their sources, mostly thinking about Pathfinder itself. There is already a basic difference at being life or ES based, where life based have a naturally higher shock, freeze, and stun resistance, so ES directly has to build against them, so a global cap would cause a big difference between those. Building into full immunity to those should be still possible, but the opportunity cost should be looked at.

Reducing penetration values is many of the possible changes that would slow down the oneshot meta, but it's not the change we need, because the problem is rather the build diversity indifference, than the pace of the games. Nerfing penetration would affect inferior skills and builds as much as the top tier ones, leaving the overpowered builds still overpowered compared to the rest.

AoE overlap should be completely removed. Until it's in the game, whereever it works, it is the only viable way of building the given skill, and would cause the need to balance things around the fact that it works on those skills. Besides their overall overpowered state, the problem is that there are only a few options to skill AoE overlap, and not equally available to every build.
Through an example: GMP is easily available for everyone, for quite a cost, a gem slot and less damage, very fair. Additional arrow comes with no drawback, but the wealth required, but scales the damage by 7/5 = 40% on top of GMP. Snakepit(s) is only for spells, and costs a whole ring slot, other than that the same multiplier as +arrows. Dying sun, besides the cost of the item, has different effect on different builds: 1. Pathfinders can fit it onto the character more easily, as the less need of immunity flasks. 2. Pathfinders can keep up a longer overall duration, due to the charge generation, reduced consumption, and flat increased duration. 3. Pathfinders get an increased effect, just enough, but only exclusively available to them to make the +2 projectiles into +3. 4. In a case of your suggested nerf, Dying sun would be the most important item to counter the mentioned nerfed, making the difference between people using it and not using it even bigger. Dying sun is also the easiest way of the even fewer options to scale winter enchant, by an enourmous amount. Because of these huge numerical advantages, Dying sun becomes a musthave item, but it's cost is a separator factor among players, and also in itself asks for the class to be a Pathfinder, for the easy sustain and increased effect.
Looking at it from skill comparsion, the difference between skills using AoE overlap and skills that don't, is the biggest in the entire game, and the PvP formula does not reduce it's effect at all. In case of hitting with all projectiles, a GMP adds 400% greater damage after it's initial, not even comparable penalty. Notice I mentioned greater and not more, as the normal more multipliers in the game, do get affected by PvP formula, causing their actual multiplier to be halved, trisected, or even quartered depending on the actual damage values. If I want to compare a skill overlapping with 5 projectiles to a 1 projectile version, it means around a 800% - 1600% MORE damage multiplier. It is completely out of any "balance" this game ever had.


Besides the suggestions, let me help you clarify the misunderstandings you seem to have about T values and PvP damage formula. The T value is not in itself the factor the skill gets reduced by through the formula. The T value is a component of the PvP formula. A skill having a fixed T value is only a most of the time slight alteration / modification of the PvP formula, in the case of wallspam EA, it is actually minor. The common reduction multiplier for most build's damage is around 60-90%.

Wrapping up from the start: The PvP formula is a calculation that reduces the original damage values of skills by a significant amount. Attack / cast speed has to be the part of the formula, but altering the actual attack / cast speed of players is not an option, it has to apply to the damage as a multiplier, otherwise players would scale their DPS with attack speed, not affected by any reduction, and increasing the actual damage would be worthless. So the formula has two components, one is the damage, and the other is attack / cast speed. To make it easier, imagine it as graph, but instead of a straight line representing the different level of damages, imagine it as a curve, a line that goes less and less higher as you draw it further:

The formula has some numeric constants that apply to the damage input as multipliers, which in themselves make a curve like that, expressing to how much the damage gets reduced at certain points. On top of that we add the attack / cast TIME (THE ALMIGHTY T VALUE) as a multiplier to the formula.

Every skill going through the formula has a T value, by default their attack / cast time. Skills having a fixed T value means that the T value used in the calculation is a constant, and the damage of each of your hit is not affected by your attack / cast time at all, so you can scale your PvP DPS linearly by scaling speed. Fixed T values are usually set on skills which should do less or more damage they actually do, by giving them a T value, an attack / cast time assumption that they can hardly achieve. For example the cast time of motlen shell is 0.5, but they gave it a 1.2 T value, to increase it's damage, because on a normal build that waits for opponents to proc it will not do so that quickly.

Returning to the original example, EA: The old adjustment, the fixed 0.2 T value was designed to reduce the damage of arrows actually stacking on a player, to avoid oneshots, which had a slower attack time, so the T value affected it as a greater damage reduction.

Let's go through what happens to EA at different attack speeds.
EA with Quill Rain equipped only, and no speed multipliers, has a 3.0 attack speed, which means a 0.333 attack time, or default T value. This gets overriden by the fixed T value, which is 0.2. It means that all hits from it are calculated as if it was fired with a 0.2 attack time, so it punishes the damage due to it's greater speed.
If you stack attack speed and achieve a 5.0 attack speed, or a 0.2 attack time, it is equal to it's fixed T value, which means that the calculation is using the exact speed you are actually firing. At this point the PvP formula calculates the damage reduction AS IF IT'S A NORMAL SKILL WITH NO EXCEPTIONS, because the designed attack time is achieved.
The most surprising fact comes last, you can actually scale your attack speed so high, that the originally designed nerf becomes a buff to EA.
If you have 7.0 attack speed, your attack time, or T value is 0.143, the formula calculates as if you are firing slower, and giving you more damage than you would have without the fixed T value.

What you misunderstood is that the 70% reduction you mention, let's assume is correct, I did not calculate, it can be, is a perfectly normal reduction by the formula, most skills get similar multipliers compared to their original number, and it is not 70% in comparsion with EA without T value. Since you are having faster attack time than 0.2, if they would revert that nerf, you would actually do less damage.

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Rupenus wrote:

the MOST important thing about pvp in poe is that there is no rewards of playing pvp. no ranks, no alt arts for beeing top 3 in seasons, no tournaments, nothing. when you go to sarn arena, it's just a waste of time, cause you have nothing in return in terms of game. you can just get fun or ego satisfaction.

we need to have alt art rewards for the top 3-5-10(you name it) for each league, also for standard as well(standard rankings will start with each lague and will be renewed after league ends)

i even can supprt the idea that in sarn arena dead players drop loot. it sounds weird maybe, but sarn arena would be full of people.

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lapiz wrote:

no offence lib but that was officially the most useless post of 2017

mulla calling someone a pussy would probably have been more helpful

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MullaXul wrote:

Why'd you put me on ignore when I spectated HelloKitty mauling you in 1v1? I was merely a silent observer.

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IceDeal wrote:

Simple start fixes :

- 100% less damages to all secondary damages skills and effect
(if it can't be fixed, nuke them out of pvp. We have plenty of skills to play around, secondary damages are an old design not used in new skills since at least 2 years).

- 100% less damages to all skills supported by a defensive trigger support
(you can still use them as defensive option)

- Make every spell supported by trap and mines behave like BF (no auto target) and increase the T value to compensate for the shotgun effect.

- Bring back 1vs1 arena layout rotation and include the 3vs3 layouts.

- Bring back old sarn arena minimap partial vision to nerf offscreening.


Bim, pvp is now 6% more fun (this is a buff).