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Posted bylord_toshin3#3625on Dec 9, 2016, 6:11:11 PM
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Up to receive feedback (hey, I'm nothing if not persistent).
Censored.
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Posted bykolyaboo#7295on Dec 9, 2016, 10:38:50 PM
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tackle70 wrote:
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I_NO wrote:
Really doubt they will talk lol
Yeah they don't tend to talk about their balance changes like this. It's a shame, really. I've really lost faith in GGG and while I've been a fairly hefty supporter of their game, I don't know if I can justify future support anymore.
I tried coming up with an alternative build to my LL Mjolner the other day that would be interesting to me to play and I just can't come up with anything I would enjoy equally or more. It was the perfect build... required a lot of investment, a good amount of game knowledge, didn't rely on cheesy broken mechanics, had reasonable clear speed. I've played over 2000 hours of LL Mjolner and did not want to stop.
Well the thing even if they give explanations it is often not what people want to hear.
Just imagine they say that they wanted the Trigger behavior to be more coherent to not confuse players and didn't felt that they had a clear direction how to push Mjölnir right now, so they left it as is.
It would be an answer, it might actually be the answer but it is a satisfying one? Hardly.
My biggest issue with Mjölnir is that it doesn't work as an individual item. And even when it was new and pretty bonkers it was only decent without using Discharge and Volls. So if you have an item that hardly anybody owns that requires another item that even less people own I would argue that this is a failed design.
Again that is debatable, but for me personally it felt like that and it was the reason I essentially instantly sold my second mjölnir because I was not exited about the item, I knew I would need a Volls I likely wouldn't get to make the item worthwhile.
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Posted byEmphasy#0545on Dec 10, 2016, 12:43:01 AM
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SaiyanZ wrote:
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Emphasy wrote:
This calculation simply would assume that discharge is always triggered with the same amount of charges, however a lower CD allows you to get more charges in between unless you were full with 0,1, which is highly unlikely in non-AoE situtions, because Romiras only generates one charge per Attack, not one per hit.
Just a minor correction. Romiras does generate a charge on every hit as long as whatever you're hitting is shocked, frozen or burning. It's been like this forever, bugged I think, and most don't know about this so they don't factor it into their dps calcs or build around it.
I just tested it and guess what we can put that one into the land of rumors... or atleast burning doesn't work (or ignite), it is hard to test the others without having a build that can actually achieve those reliably, but lvl1 Q20 Fireball + Chance to Ignite and Spectral Throw (which does hit the enemy at least twice) doesn't generate 2 charges. It generates one, as does Blade Flurry, which also always hits twice if you instantly release and even hitting multiple enemies did only generate one charge.
I'm also not sure how Status Effects should make a different, Romiras has nothing to do with them. It essentially generates 2 charges when you hit, one from the procced Discharge and one from the Attack.
I'm also not sure how you would build around it. There aren't that many nodes for it and you essentially want to add Added Cold Damage to your Attack and not deal Fire Damage or Lightning Damage to Ignite because you want Ele Equilibrium Procs from there.
Of course this only works if you are not using Molten Strike, which sadly removes that ability alltogether, but I have never seen a Mjölnir Build use Chance to Ignite (well... to be fair I had, but it used Emberwake and Taming, and not Discharge, so you can't really apply it here).
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Posted byEmphasy#0545on Dec 10, 2016, 4:16:17 AM
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Maybe you should ask devs @reddit to get any answer.
Tried dried lake yesterday just out of curiosity and this balance change is simply joke.
My Summoners Zombies kill Voll faster than Mjolner-Discharge.
Selffound FTW!!!!
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Posted byMordad#0587on Dec 10, 2016, 10:07:35 AM
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Emphasy wrote:
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Well i would not consider your posts troll regarding Mjölner but you are very uninformed and havent ever played a Mjölner discharge build (this is obvious from your posts even if you wouldnt have directly state that). Therefore you give very uninformed or false responses regarding this topic.
Well nobody gives any facts. Saying my dps is worse isn't actually helping. Because they might not have thought that it even affects discharge, because they underestimated the ability to generate charges.
I did have Mjölnir in Talisman and in Perandus, I wasn't able to get Volls for a Discharger in Talisman and I didn't bothered and just sold it quickly in Perandus. I did try using it with Lightning Spells in Talisman but it was just terrible.
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This is flat out wrong. Its straight 60% damage nerf like presented in the numbers and I can confirm this with personal experience as i have played one mjolner build to lvl 100 and multiple other variations. I tried them out in 2.5 and its a straight 60% damage nerf.
It can't be just that, because this means you get 60% less charges, which is not true or you would have had to always have full charges for each discharge, which is highly unlikely, because Mjölnir Builds have no access to Volls Protector, so they can't generate huge amounts of Power Charges within 0,1s.
In the old Situation during a 1 second intervall you made 10 Attacks and 10 Discharges. Each Discharge was with 2 Endurance and 2 Power Charges at minimum in a single target environment. Now you might get 8 Attacks and 4 Discharges (because my assumption before might be odd, because you shouldn't waste any CD, because you essentially have to hit immidiatly after the 250ms are up). So if you do just that you get 3 Endurance and 3 Power Charges. So over the 1 second you discharge a total of 24 Charges while you did discharge 40 before. That is only 40% less, not 60 (if you could keep 10 hits, without wasting CD it would be 30% less).
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It would actually need 150% more damage to reach the same dps level as before.
Old: 10 triggers/s x y dmg/spell = 10y dps
New: 4 triggers/s x y dmg/spell = 4y dps
old/new = 2.5 = 150% more damage needed
This calculation simply would assume that discharge is always triggered with the same amount of charges, however a lower CD allows you to get more charges in between unless you were full with 0,1, which is highly unlikely in non-AoE situtions, because Romiras only generates one charge per Attack, not one per hit.
So again you can easily generate charges in between, but hardly enough to be constantly full, not with an 0,1sec intervall. It is a 60% nerf for any skill that is not Discharge, but Mjölnir was crap without discharge basically since forever. But Discharge damage isn't based on the amount of discharges but the amount of charges. If you Discharge every 0,1 seconds you can technically deal less damage than if you discharge every 0,5 seconds, because the first discharge might happen with 1 charge, while the later happens with 8. For every other spell this would be true, for Discharge it isn't unless you are discharging with a constant number, but I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get more charges for each discharge unless you are at full charges. And that is not something you need experience with, that is just a bit of math.
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No it doesnt work this way. You pretty much discharge at the same amount of charges you did pre 2.5 this is because the additional spells which were triggered also caused romiras to create more charges. Those charges are gone therefore again its a straight 60% damage nerf.
Like I said the only way to be at 60% is if you always were at full charges. And this is hardly possible. I'm also a bit confident that you at least wanted ConC in there so you would only use one additional spell, because you would need to generate 70% more charges with that one additional spell. But even then I can't see how you would reach full charges, that is essentially one charge more and basically works the same now.
And honestly there are even easy ways to generate tons of Power Charges, it is something you wouldn't have to do before, but you can easily do it now (and you should have before). Just put down an Orb of Storm, not much but free power charges which hardly mattered with 0,1s but make a big difference with 0,25s
So you make assumptions over builds that u have never played and telling people that actually play the Mjölner builds (or did played) they are wrong about the damage nerf?
If you want numbers: I made serveral videos from 2.4 in my guides of killing minotaurus. It is easy to get numbers, minotaurus have 12.8 million hp and depending on build can take 2 minutes or more. now divide the HP by the seconds it takes to kill and u have ur dps numbers. Now do that with the exact same mjölner build in 2.5 and then you realize you will take a little more than double the time ~ 4:15 minutes (the time here is randomly taken for demonstrating purposes - but the relation between them is the same).
That reflects a 60% damage nerf. If you want me to really proof it hard and record a video you could sponsor me a minotaur map and i will record it and upload on youtube so you can compare my old dps with my 2.5 dps and see that its a straight 60% damage nerf. Its safe to assume when 3 of the professional guide writers in this thread (including me) have tried mjölner in 2.5 and say its a 60% nerf you are safe to believe it. Unlike the balance team we dont follow some shady agenda - we just want a fair treatment.
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Emphasy wrote:
[...] And I'm concerned that all you want to do is push it back in this position. I would like to use Mjölnir for actual lightning spells. Because once I had one (which was 2.0 directly after the nerf to 30% proc rate) it was terrible. I had no Volls, and I could have gotten Romiras, but I thought it might be cool to trigger some Arcs or Sparks etc. but it wasn't. And honestly I don't feel there should be just another Discharge proc tool and that's what Mjönir is, it is essentially indifferent to Cospris and Cospris was usable with Cold Spells not sure if it still is with the changes, but if you used Cospris with Cold Spells putting the CD from 100ms to 250ms is a straight 60% damage nerf, while you can compensate discharge by just discharging with more charges.
Lets be realistic here - mjölner with spells other than discharge always sucked compared to discharge. For it to be viable with just spells you would require a mjölner buff up to 300% more spell dmg excluding discharge which clearly wont happen. About Cospris: it was designed for cyclone discharge - cold spells other than discharge sucked incredibly hard for cospris in comparision. And about the "more charges" I answered that part already 3 times. Too much theory (especially from someone who have no grasp how mjölner performed in 2.4 and can not compare it to 2.5) does not reflect reality. Plus i offered you a opportunity to get a video proof.
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Emphasy wrote:
[...] and wth Cospris there should never be a reason to use Mjölnir, because it is just straight out worse. Cospris works with Blade Flurry, Cospris works with Crit, Cospris gives additonal damage. Technically you can do a CoC Cospris or CwC cospris that procs even more spells, you can't do that with Mjölnir. So it needs a new direction, otherwise it can't be as good as Cospris, just because it is not based on crit and not a sword.
Cospris currently is 4 times better mjölner. Technically cospris malice could use a setup which abuses cast when channeling for 2 discharges/s 4 discharge/s from cospris and 2 discharges from cast on crit gem makes a total of 8 discharges per second along the other advantages of overpowered cospris malice. Its no secret that the balance team wanted to punch the mjölner users in the face for no reason with cospris malice.
Last edited by zzang#1847 on Dec 10, 2016, 11:52:24 AM
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Posted byzzang#1847on Dec 10, 2016, 11:38:17 AM
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bump
The 352nd character to hit Level 100 in Standard
The 82nd character to hit Delve 1000 in Standard
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Posted bytackle70#1293on Dec 11, 2016, 12:08:19 AMOn Probation
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tackle70 wrote:
So, any answer from the mail?
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Posted byEvander1992#2400on Dec 11, 2016, 12:42:29 AM
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Evander1992 wrote:
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tackle70 wrote:
So, any answer from the mail?
Not yet. :/
I really don't want to turn to reddit, but perhaps silence indicates they're talking about it.
Theorycrafter/Build Creator for PORTAL guild
@BlightScourge -> guide @ view-thread/1382667 (Retired till Mjolner is fixed)
Lvl 94 Crit Mjolner Marauder
twitch.tv/savagewolves
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Posted byzSavage#0846on Dec 11, 2016, 1:03:41 AM
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zSavage wrote:
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Evander1992 wrote:
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tackle70 wrote:
So, any answer from the mail?
Not yet. :/
I really don't want to turn to reddit, but perhaps silence indicates they're talking about it.
From my own experience ...... you are going to wait indefinitely at this rate, by bumping this thread.
Better send a PM or ask on reddit.
The very few interventions on this forum are basically moderation related or mechanics related ( explanation of what does what ).
The later being pretty rare.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Dec 11, 2016, 12:24:33 PM
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Posted byFruz#6137on Dec 11, 2016, 1:19:30 AM
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