Played my first armor-only character, and I'm disgusted by it.

I may have done some math wrong so I used a calc to have some concrete numbers. Nonetheless a player with some armor can easily achieve 75% PDR regardless of whether or not they are Juggernaut or not for hits as high as 10k initial physical. The difference is miniscule. A player with 0 Armor and no Arctic armor can still achieve 49% or more PDR with just fortify and charges. Flasks, Armor, Endurance Charges, Fortify and Buffs to Fortify, as well as chaos golem Can put you over that 75% number, over 84% if you use a granite flask. A juggernaut with the same buffs can achieve 85% with a granite flask. The last pictures I uploaded must have had some error in one of these buffs. It is possible to get higher PDR than presented below, these are just some numbers for reference. For most hits in the game any class can get over 90% Effective PDR just from charges, fortify, and armor alone. The additional numbers are for when mapping and mostly apply to bosses where double damage mods and curses make those higher numbers a reality.

Not Juggernaut (-AA)



Not Juggernaut (+AA)



+ Chaos Golem



Not Juggernaut (No Armor or AA)



Juggernaut (-AA)



Juggernaut (+AA)



+ Chaos Golem



Juggernaut (No Armor or AA)

"

Starxsword wrote:

What of Uber Izaro with max charges? He doesn't hit for 10k physical in one hit.

Maybe you missed the "and Gargoyles" part. I dont have exact numbers but with Mace he can probably do more than 10K on a high end crit.

"

Starxsword wrote:

Juggernauts can AFK tank the guy.

Your point is what exactly? They are the "phys mitigation" class.

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Starxsword wrote:

I don't think you understand that 10k physical hit is exceedingly rare.

You ever play hardcore? That one time of "exceedingly rare" is too often.

"

eragon1111 wrote:

I have to say im really impressed by OP being a better QA tester than anyone at GGG office. Chest armour not working on projectiles ? That should have been found like 2 years ago.

We all know in how bad position armour currently is.

Ps. GGG hire him, but mby better not, major patches would be pushed back by half a year.. :^)

The bug did not apparently exist 2 years ago so that would not be reasonable. GGG (Mark) stated that the bug was introduced when implementing something in the Juggernaut which would indicate absolutely no earlier than Ascendancy Release, early March of this year. But your main point which was praise for Shppy is very correct.

Also, the bug is apparently only the body armor (chest) piece which is ignored.

"

Jgizle wrote:

I may have done some math wrong so I used a calc to have some concrete numbers. Nonetheless a player with some armor can easily achieve 75% PDR regardless of whether or not they are Juggernaut or not for hits as high as 10k initial physical.

It is definitely reachable, you need to invest quite a bit for it though, so I would not really say "easily" since every build won't be able to do that.
But yeah, if you invest in endurance charges, you can become very tanky.

It's even lame how powerful EC are making it one of the only ways to deal with physical dmg efficiently ( the other being maybe ... using coil + using ToH / fortify or both. Even better with EC of course ).
I could mention armour but as this thread points out ............

Uniques that make you take physical damage as an element of damage are very useful. Global defense increase would help but i dont think theres a single good unique with that affix.

Even with how bad armor is though, a character is more likely to die from elemental damage or a degen. I have almost died or died so many times to bleed or poison on other classes as i dont often focus primarily on my hp. When i started playing berserker though i was able to play more risky as i got a free instant life and mana flask on warcrys. This makes it quite easy for me to even do no regen maps.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Starxsword wrote:

What of Uber Izaro with max charges? He doesn't hit for 10k physical in one hit.

Maybe you missed the "and Gargoyles" part. I dont have exact numbers but with Mace he can probably do more than 10K on a high end crit.

"

Starxsword wrote:

Juggernauts can AFK tank the guy.

Your point is what exactly? They are the "phys mitigation" class.

"

Starxsword wrote:

I don't think you understand that 10k physical hit is exceedingly rare.

You ever play hardcore? That one time of "exceedingly rare" is too often.

Why yes, I play hardcore. I still have 1 character in regular HC I have not deleted.

And no, "exceedingly rare" is not too often. I don't know what hardcore you are playing, but you do not play thinking about the 1 in a million chance of something happening. What you do play is going in a map understand what the mods and what each monster could possibly do to you to a certain extent.

However, you do not play with the expectation that the stars align and oneshot you. You will never get to high levels if on every encounter you think the stars will align and oneshot you.

And if you are going to let Izaro fully charge up with charges and all the Gargoyles, you go in KNOWING this. And I assume you have countermeasures.
This is why you do not calculate for 10k hits, because it almost never happens without your knowledge. You calculate for rare scenarios where you get hit by spikes of damage.
But you do not calculate for scenarios where the stars need to align to oneshot you. When that scenario comes up, you die, that is all there is.

"

Jgizle wrote:

Uniques that make you take physical damage as an element of damage are very useful. Global defense increase would help but i dont think theres a single good unique with that affix.

Yes and no. If you are Juggernaut(generally the only class that can get that much armor) and have very high armor + endurance charges, you will take more damage if you convert it to elemental.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Starxsword wrote:

What of Uber Izaro with max charges? He doesn't hit for 10k physical in one hit.

Maybe you missed the "and Gargoyles" part. I dont have exact numbers but with Mace he can probably do more than 10K on a high end crit.

"

Starxsword wrote:

Juggernauts can AFK tank the guy.

Your point is what exactly? They are the "phys mitigation" class.

"

Starxsword wrote:

I don't think you understand that 10k physical hit is exceedingly rare.

You ever play hardcore? That one time of "exceedingly rare" is too often.

Well yeah one of the Gargoyles amplify his damage, but 10k base damage is a lot. With 5,8k HP my Ranger survived all of his attacks. And he only had Fortify. I lack numbers on how much the gargoyles buff his damage, but from experience it isn't that much. People often overestimate actual numerical damage. Oneshots are quite rare and often you are dying to a quick succession of heavy hits and not one single hit. The exception to this are of course corpse explotions and the strongest telegraphed attack is propably still the Vaal Slam.

Also Crits hardly matter for Izaro, since there are no mods his critical damage multiplier is really low and damage variance on regular mob attacks is also very low, most mobs deal very reliable damage with their attacks.

And when he says that 10k hits are exceedingly rare he means enemies that are able to deal such hits. Actually Izaro might be the only one, except for some terribly roled red maps. If you get a map with Vulnerability, Crit, Increased Damage and happen to encounter an extra damage or powerful crits rare something like this could happen, exspecially if it is near an extra damage totem (or another rare). But besides this it is rather unlikely, and if it happens you know it well in advance because it is your map.

If you encounter such damage it is very often Elemental Damage, not Physical. And finding Elemental hits upwards 10k damage is fairly easy, considering there is the reliable assumption that you only take a quarter of it.

You usually notice how low physical hits are if you play Evasion based Chars or ES based ones. They have no armor, and often don't have charges either. They can be lucky if they have fortify, but they are still rarely oneshot by those attacks.

Almost all of those surprising oneshots are created by mods stacking in favor of enemy damage. Izaro though... I didn't experience him as dealing to much damage, but again I rarely got hit by him so I can't say how much the gargoyle buffs him, but again this is a similar situation to nasty map mods.

"

Starxsword wrote:

And no, "exceedingly rare" is not too often. I don't know what hardcore you are playing,

That is your opinion. You can play with this attitude but there are other people who do not.

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Starxsword wrote:

What you do play is going in a map understand what the mods and what each monster could possibly do to you to a certain extent.

Please explain how to do that. Because I do not have access to effective monster damage numbers.

"

Starxsword wrote:

And if you are going to let Izaro fully charge up with charges and all the Gargoyles, you go in KNOWING this. And I assume you have countermeasures.

Did it ever occur to you that considering 10K hits could potentially be necessary for these "countermeasures"? Basically you are saying we should not consider countermeasures or what? I do not understand your attitude here at all. What is wrong with considering 10K hits?

"

Starxsword wrote:

This is why you do not calculate for 10k hits, because it almost never happens without your knowledge. You calculate for rare scenarios where you get hit by spikes of damage.
But you do not calculate for scenarios where the stars need to align to oneshot you. When that scenario comes up, you die, that is all there is.

Very obviously (from my POV which is superior as you are addressing me and saying things about how "I" do stuff) you are wrong. I consider both - multi hit spikes and big single hits. And I try to find a balance between the two.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well yeah one of the Gargoyles amplify his damage, but 10k base damage is a lot. With 5,8k HP my Ranger survived all of his attacks. And he only had Fortify.

Maybe you missed the "charges" in "charges + gargoyles" parts? Did you survive 2H mace Izaro crits with "charges and gargoyles" with 5.8k HP and just fortify?

"

Emphasy wrote:

Oneshots are quite rare and often you are dying to a quick succession of heavy hits and not one single hit. The exception to this are of course corpse explotions and the strongest telegraphed attack is propably still the Vaal Slam.

Incidentally Izaro is "well known" for being one of those who actually does one shot kills.

"

Emphasy wrote:

Also Crits hardly matter for Izaro, since there are no mods his critical damage multiplier is really low and damage variance on regular mob attacks is also very low, most mobs deal very reliable damage with their attacks.

Maybe you missed the "charges" in "charges + gargoyles" parts? Far as I know they function like power + endurance + frenzy charges.

"

Emphasy wrote:

And when he says that 10k hits are exceedingly rare he means enemies that are able to deal such hits. Actually Izaro might be the only one, except for some terribly roled red maps. If you get a map with Vulnerability, Crit, Increased Damage and happen to encounter an extra damage or powerful crits rare something like this could happen, exspecially if it is near an extra damage totem (or another rare).

Dont forget about ghosted boss with aura from rare on it.

"

Emphasy wrote:

But besides this it is rather unlikely, and if it happens you know it well in advance because it is your map.

I dont see your point. What would be the advantage of not considering 10k hits? I do not see such an advantage. If I can run such a map I have a clear advantage over not being able to do it.

"

Emphasy wrote:

You usually notice how low physical hits are if you play Evasion based Chars or ES based ones. They have no armor, and often don't have charges either. They can be lucky if they have fortify, but they are still rarely oneshot by those attacks.

Which is exactly the point: It does happen. Using the word "rarely" does not change that it actually happens.

"

Emphasy wrote:

Almost all of those surprising oneshots are created by mods stacking in favor of enemy damage.

Now you speak about "surprising". Before you said something about "knowing".

"

Emphasy wrote:

Izaro though... I didn't experience him as dealing to much damage, but again I rarely got hit by him so I can't say how much the gargoyle buffs him, but again this is a similar situation to nasty map mods.

If you are evasion based you probably dont get crit much either.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

That is your opinion. You can play with this attitude but there are other people who do not.

Yes, it is my opinion and also my observation. People who play HC take into consideration of rare occurances, but exceedingly rare? Never heard of such a case.
It is like saying you are scared of 10 white skeleton archers, because they could in theory kill if they all crit. Which is true. But how many players do you know play with that in mind?
The case of it happening is exceedingly rare, because the archers will likely die before they all fire at you simulteously, but it could happen and in that instance, it could also happen that they all crit you and you have to reroll. But people don't play taking that into consideration.

"

Please explain how to do that. Because I do not have access to effective monster damage numbers.

Strange you ask this question. You don't need access to exact monster damage to be able to tell how much damage you are taking. This season for instance, monsters are hitting harder. But did GGG tell us that? I don't believe so. You figure it out by seeing how much your life drops when you fight them. This is especially true if you are playing HC, you notice these differences.

With that same experience you learn how threatening each monster is, so you know what you are dealing with when facing against specific monsters.

"

Did it ever occur to you that considering 10K hits could potentially be necessary for these "countermeasures"? Basically you are saying we should not consider countermeasures or what? I do not understand your attitude here at all. What is wrong with considering 10K hits?

Not at all. I begin to wonder if you are a HC player with these kinds of questions.

Countermeasures do not mean face tanking the mob in question, that is a SC mentality and that is how you die. Countermeasures means you either practiced against that specific combination of buffs in standard or you avoid the attack entirely.

"

Very obviously (from my POV which is superior as you are addressing me and saying things about how "I" do stuff) you are wrong. I consider both - multi hit spikes and big single hits. And I try to find a balance between the two.

Everyone considers multi hit spikes and big single hits, this is not at all special.
10k pure physical hit is a massive physical hit which only occurs in exceedingly rare circumstances. This is why there is little reason to take it into consideration, because these are the hits you avoid.

How many HC players do you think will stand still and let core Malachai do his teleport slam? The question becomes, why are you considering these hits if you should be avoiding them?