Newbie lab feedback

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xSTGx wrote:

no sympathy whatsoever for: bad PCs/bad hardware, bad internet, bad systems overall. game devs are OBLIGED to push the limits of hardware.

(wait, did you just say "integrated graphics"? did you really say "10-15FPS"? this web page is probably lagging for you, too. I mean it in the most positive, most encouraging way possible: get a job!)

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sgoer wrote:

Cons:

1. Adding content that not all players can complete that ALSO includes character bonuses that are so fundamental to builds now (even just 6 of 8 ascendancy points) limits the progression of those players. Lab should provide great benefit to those that can complete it, but I don't think that benefit should be something so fundamental to the vast majority of builds (ascendancy points). Perhaps specific unique items, the item enchants that currently exist in lab, and the final 2 ascendancy points make sense to limit to merciless and uber labs, but general ascendancy points required for most builds (at least 6) should not be limited in this way.

2. The fail on death mechanic for the entirety of the lab punishes not only players that may not have the twitch skills to deal with all the traps and boss, but those with internet and computer systems that sometimes lag a little at inopportune times. The first time I played normal lab, I failed 3 times due to server disconnect, another 2 to framerate drops to ~5-10, and once to my own lack of skill (at level 50 something I believe). This was many hours of playing, as I was new to lab, and each attempt took 40min-1 hour. Incredibly frustrating. Perhaps make a fail boot the player back to the beginning of that particular room of the lab, reset Izaro's health to full and the fight, but not the entire lab. Or shorten the whole lab to be fewer levels.

3. I run POE on integrated graphics and windows 10. My computer is dual use (work and play). I can generally get it to run at half decent framerates (~30) with a little intel extreme tuning utility tweaking and power setting adjustments, but every time windows 10 updates, much of this work gets reset and/or driver issues emerge again which can make these rates unpredictable. While the game should be designed for the lowest common denominator in computer performance, mechanics like the lab do make it especially punishing for those with occasional tech issues like myself.

4. I will ask for advice in another forum, but with my current character, a level 80 spark inquisitor with 3300hp and 2100 ES, 5500 armor, 25% block and max resists on merciless, I could not take more than 2 hits from Izaro (one from ranged and one when he caught up to me by skipping 5 frames :). With my struggling framerates today (10-15 post most recent win 10 update for reasons I still cannot track down), my movement skills and run speed (~20) were just not enough to avoid these hits and the traps in the final stage. I probably won't try this again for a month, as the frustration/ascendancy point trade-off is not worth it (and this is a big deal, as the next 2 points would give my crits resistance bypass, something essential to my build as I continue moving through the atlas). For reference, I am having no problems completing magic and rare modded tier 5 and 6 maps with no deaths at this level.

5. Learning from mistakes is a fundamental part of this game (particularly as you get to start over every league), but lab just includes too much frustration and too much of a time requirement to repeat often.

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Jgizle wrote:

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sgoer wrote:

1. Why is it fine for last 2 points to be in Uber Lab but the first 6 points are not fine to be in normal, cruel, and merciless Lab. If anything the first 6 points can easily be gained by out leveling it, or paying some one to run it. All builds can easily get those first 6 points. AC points are not mandatory to character progression. We did it before Ascendancy, we can still do it now.

2 & 3. Lab is a learning experience like everything else in the game. Twitch skills will come with practice, if needed at all. I certainly dont need twitch skills to progress through lab like I would require in an FPS. The game should not be balanced for people with poor pc quality. They fixed lockstep so people dont need to complain about that any more. GGG cant increase the quality of your graphics card, or the amount of ram you have installed, and they cant limit the amount of running processes you have when playing POE. If your pc rates your computer with an index around 3 then you need to update it. Just because your computer is brand new does not mean it is good. Unless you build it yourself you are most likely buying outdated hardware. Low FPS (30) in town means poor graphics card, ram, or both. I have 16gb of ram and a 2gb graphics card that is pretty mediocre these days and i pull over 200 fps in town and dont drop below 100 out of towb unless i turn on multithreading.

4. Your inquisitor is trying to capitolize on to many defenses. If you are going for ES you dont want to also go for lots of HP. You can easily go over 10k ES, which I here is far better than HP anyways. You are however wearing almost entirely str based armors for more armor. If you want to go hybrid go for str and int hybrid armors to raise yours ES to better levels.

I would like to point out that Izaro can easily 1 shot people with low pure life or low pure ES. Physical damage mitigation will only help so much. Even ziggyd popular assreacher build with reach of the council would get 1 shot by Uber Lab Izaro if he messed up. Its a skill mechanic fight much like Malachais fight. There are opportunities to attack and run away. The problem is trying to rush the fight.

1. I disagree. Perhaps for those that run Uber, all AC points should be removed from lab, but my point, given the limits of my personal experience were that the first 4-6 are indeed mandatory for character progression for most builds, and perhaps more-so for more casual players like myself that may not have the currency to gear up as effectively as the more motivated players. Problem 1 is lab gating a necessary game mechanic for character progression. I doubt many share your sentiment that many can do without AC points. I will not pay for a carry, as that defeats the purpose of playing at all for me. An example I came across yesterday while playing is that Leo gates certain crafting bonuses. I do not like playing pvp, and will likely never do so, but his bonuses are not something I would consider essential to all builds or the vast majority in order to progress. Gating something like that behind a very different game mechanic is fine, as it is not something necessary for the majority of characters.

2. Lots of people bring up hardware. Yes, my framerates dropped really low. I manage to not have that problem in all other content in the game, however (except, perhaps, for the Shavrone fight, as her lightning traps wreak havok on my system for some reason -- yet no problem with the Malachai fight despite the huge amount of stuff on the screen). Every other fight I have encountered in the game does not cause this problem. Again, however, hardware is a bit besides the point. I brought it up as one of the many reasons the lab can go wrong, and when the lab goes wrong, it is all or nothing. The fail mechanic, given the different play style, the increased graphic load, and the mysterious disconnects all make this a requirement for AC points too onerous, for me.

4. Thanks for the pointers. I have since respecced him to be life and armor based and he is surviving much better. I doubt I will ever do Uber Izaro on any build given my experiences so far with lab and what I have read on that fight. I am building an ES tornado shot pathfinder right now, but ES is so much more expensive than life and armor, that for this inquisitor I am sticking to life. I'll see how far he gets (at 83 now and still managing maps so far).

All this said, I feel no entitlement to GGG altering anything. I am sure they have the data on lab completions, etc. to help them determine what path to take, if any. I will likely keep playing and continue suffering through at least the first two labs on most of my characters. I posted this merely to share my own personal feedback as a newer player on the one element of the game I find less than enjoyable.

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sidtherat wrote:

the lag can be a reason - if your game plays at 10 fps i would simply stop playing it. Izaro fight is mechanical and you should be able to know what and when is going to happen. difficult to do that with this kind of performance :/

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xSTGx wrote:

no sympathy whatsoever for: bad PCs/bad hardware, bad internet, bad systems overall. game devs are OBLIGED to push the limits of hardware.