Newbie lab feedback

After playing for over a month now, I thought I would leave some feedback on one of the few things I feel needs a bit of balance: the lab.

I'll try to tone down the frustration as I just failed an attempt at cruel lab at level 80!

Pros:

-I can appreciate the value of some very difficult content with very different mechanics than the rest of the game that not all players will be able to complete. I currently treat the end game maps this way and it is something to strive for in builds and playing skill with the recognition I may not get there this league or even next.

-Traps can be very cool and require strategic gameplay. I would almost suggest some of them could have a roll in extra rewarding but tough map mods.

-Ascendancy bonuses and even the enchants are great and unique

-The mechanics of the Izaro fights are cool, in that actions in the first two can impact the third. This again requires strategic fighting.

Cons:

-adding content that not all players can complete that ALSO includes character bonuses that are so fundamental to builds now (even just 6 of 8 ascendancy points) limits the progression of those players. Lab should provide great benefit to those that can complete it, but I don't think that benefit should be something so fundamental to the vast majority of builds (ascendancy points). Perhaps specific unique items, the item enchants that currently exist in lab, and the final 2 ascendancy points make sense to limit to merciless and uber labs, but general ascendancy points required for most builds (at least 6) should not be limited in this way.

-The fail on death mechanic for the entirety of the lab punishes not only players that may not have the twitch skills to deal with all the traps and boss, but those with internet and computer systems that sometimes lag a little at inopportune times. The first time I played normal lab, I failed 3 times due to server disconnect, another 2 to framerate drops to ~5-10, and once to my own lack of skill (at level 50 something I believe). This was many hours of playing, as I was new to lab, and each attempt took 40min-1 hour. Incredibly frustrating. Perhaps make a fail boot the player back to the beginning of that particular room of the lab, reset Izaro's health to full and the fight, but not the entire lab. Or shorten the whole lab to be fewer levels.

I run POE on integrated graphics and windows 10. My computer is dual use (work and play). I can generally get it to run at half decent framerates (~30) with a little intel extreme tuning utility tweaking and power setting adjustments, but every time windows 10 updates, much of this work gets reset and/or driver issues emerge again which can make these rates unpredictable. While the game should be designed for the lowest common denominator in computer performance, mechanics like the lab do make it especially punishing for those with occasional tech issues like myself.

I will ask for advice in another forum, but with my current character, a level 80 spark inquisitor with 3300hp and 2100 ES, 5500 armor, 25% block and max resists on merciless, I could not take more than 2 hits from Izaro (one from ranged and one when he caught up to me by skipping 5 frames :). With my struggling framerates today (10-15 post most recent win 10 update for reasons I still cannot track down), my movement skills and run speed (~20) were just not enough to avoid these hits and the traps in the final stage. I probably won't try this again for a month, as the frustration/ascendancy point trade-off is not worth it (and this is a big deal, as the next 2 points would give my crits resistance bypass, something essential to my build as I continue moving through the atlas). For reference, I am having no problems completing magic and rare modded tier 5 and 6 maps with no deaths at this level.

Learning from mistakes is a fundamental part of this game (particularly as you get to start over every league), but lab just includes too much frustration and too much of a time requirement to repeat often.

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

"

Nykken wrote:

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

I get that. If I were limited to 10-15 fps all the time, I would not play, and this would be moot. The point is that latency, lag, and occasional tech issues do occur, and the complete re-do function of the lab punishes these situations horribly. I am pretty sure my 3 fails due to server disconnect had nothing to do with my network, but GGG-side issues, as my network connection is great.

I am sure I can complete cruel lab on this character eventually. I already did on a BV character. Again, it is just that the fail mechanic makes this experience miserable. I enjoy learning from failure, but when the entire lab and an hour of time is lost, and the fail can be triggered by a single mis-step or lag spike, it does not encourage enjoyment of the game. As I said, I will try again, but not likely for a month, as I play for fun, and that fail mechanic makes this content the one element in this game that is not fun at all.

lvl 80 failing CRUEL lab? W_H_A_T??

i could have understood trap as the traps do not care about difficulty. but the cruel izaro is.. well.. pushover.

your stats seem ok (bit low tbh - 3300hp is low and your ES most probably was 0 except for the start of the fight) and i simply cannot think of any scenario that could have killed you

i did cruel izaro with melee ev ghetto raider with like 2200 hp and nothing else.

the lag can be a reason - if your game plays at 10 fps i would simply stop playing it. Izaro fight is mechanical and you should be able to know what and when is going to happen. difficult to do that with this kind of performance :/



as for your comments: any reasonable character can complete lab. not only normal/cruel/merc but also uber (with the last being ofc serious challenge for more snowflake builds). if you know a build archetype that cannot complete the lab - please let us know.

builds that cannot complete the lab are bad builds. or rather random collection of items and passives without much plan put into it. not all characters are successful. game has its rules and one of the rules (frequently ignored) is that dps is important, being alive is even more important.

note: the Raider mentioned above clears rare 5+ maps at lvl 68.. and already rotflstomped Merc Izaro. it deals not the greatest damage - because i invested in staying alive first.

but the main point here is - if my PC produced 10fps i wouldnt be playing this game. simple as that. deaths you have no control over are VERY frustrating. i hate them. and i understand you hate them too.

but that has very little to do with the fight itself (the balance of the fight) - more with the tech issues it produces.

"

sgoer wrote:

"

Nykken wrote:

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

I get that. If I were limited to 10-15 fps all the time, I would not play, and this would be moot. The point is that latency, lag, and occasional tech issues do occur, and the complete re-do function of the lab punishes these situations horribly. I am pretty sure my 3 fails due to server disconnect had nothing to do with my network, but GGG-side issues, as my network connection is great.

I am sure I can complete cruel lab on this character eventually. I already did on a BV character. Again, it is just that the fail mechanic makes this experience miserable. I enjoy learning from failure, but when the entire lab and an hour of time is lost, and the fail can be triggered by a single mis-step or lag spike, it does not encourage enjoyment of the game. As I said, I will try again, but not likely for a month, as I play for fun, and that fail mechanic makes this content the one element in this game that is not fun at all.

I have beaten merc lab the last 3 times I entered it. If GGG's side had connection issues as bad as you described then that should be highly unlikely.
Players go from level 1 to 100 without dying in a thing called hardcore. If GGG's side had connection issues that drop your odds of successfully surviving half an hour in lab to 25%, that would be completely impossible.
Either you need to play better and stop getting hit by telegraphed attacks or you need to do something about your hardware and/or connection.

"

Nykken wrote:

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

Bullsh*t. I got lagged to death from izarro cruel lab in the final stage. Nice combination of zealed-Izarro hit, lagged down /frame rate collapse and teleporting in to traps. Even decoy totem had helped and I had killed vaal merc around 15 minutes ago with no problem (and all the other stuff too).

Its more like: still bad optmisation and horrible balancing. I would agree tough, that izarro is one of the better designed bosses. But the zealed izarro version is out of tune and a design desicion to teleport players into traps needs a stable enviroment (frame, lag) so that the player can react in time. If you cant provide this, you should be creative enough for another approach.

And btw: players that can´t complete the lab dont exist, because they just quit...

"

LanPirot wrote:

"

Nykken wrote:

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

Bullsh*t. I got lagged to death from izarro cruel lab in the final stage. Nice combination of zealed-Izarro hit, lagged down /frame rate collapse and teleporting in to traps. Even decoy totem had helped and I had killed vaal merc around 15 minutes ago with no problem (and all the other stuff too).

Its more like: still bad optmisation and horrible balancing. I would agree tough, that izarro is one of the better designed bosses. But the zealed izarro version is out of tune and a design desicion to teleport players into traps needs a stable enviroment (frame, lag) so that the player can react in time. If you cant provide this, you should be creative enough for another approach.

And btw: players that can´t complete the lab dont exist, because they just quit...

I've had no FPS issues with the lab, if people can't for some reason acknowledge or complete the challenge alone there are always people selling kills, for the right price of course.

lets go, sell uber lab for me. I can't pass trials cuz traps destroyng my no-regen build by one shot.

"

LanPirot wrote:

"

Nykken wrote:

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab due to hardware or connection issues are too far outside of what a developer can plan for. At some point you have to just say "you need to invest in better hardware" or "you need to invest in a better internet connection or talk to your ISP"

Players that can't complete normal/cruel/merc lab because it's too hard don't exist.

Bullsh*t. I got lagged to death from izarro cruel lab in the final stage. Nice combination of zealed-Izarro hit, lagged down /frame rate collapse and teleporting in to traps. Even decoy totem had helped and I had killed vaal merc around 15 minutes ago with no problem (and all the other stuff too).

Its more like: still bad optmisation and horrible balancing. I would agree tough, that izarro is one of the better designed bosses. But the zealed izarro version is out of tune and a design desicion to teleport players into traps needs a stable enviroment (frame, lag) so that the player can react in time. If you cant provide this, you should be creative enough for another approach.

And btw: players that can´t complete the lab dont exist, because they just quit...

The possibility of failure is completely irrelevant when talking about a claim of the impossibility of success.

"

sidtherat wrote:

lvl 80 failing CRUEL lab? W_H_A_T??

i could have understood trap as the traps do not care about difficulty. but the cruel izaro is.. well.. pushover.

your stats seem ok (bit low tbh - 3300hp is low and your ES most probably was 0 except for the start of the fight) and i simply cannot think of any scenario that could have killed you

i did cruel izaro with melee ev ghetto raider with like 2200 hp and nothing else.

the lag can be a reason - if your game plays at 10 fps i would simply stop playing it. Izaro fight is mechanical and you should be able to know what and when is going to happen. difficult to do that with this kind of performance :/



as for your comments: any reasonable character can complete lab. not only normal/cruel/merc but also uber (with the last being ofc serious challenge for more snowflake builds). if you know a build archetype that cannot complete the lab - please let us know.

builds that cannot complete the lab are bad builds. or rather random collection of items and passives without much plan put into it. not all characters are successful. game has its rules and one of the rules (frequently ignored) is that dps is important, being alive is even more important.

note: the Raider mentioned above clears rare 5+ maps at lvl 68.. and already rotflstomped Merc Izaro. it deals not the greatest damage - because i invested in staying alive first.

but the main point here is - if my PC produced 10fps i wouldnt be playing this game. simple as that. deaths you have no control over are VERY frustrating. i hate them. and i understand you hate them too.

but that has very little to do with the fight itself (the balance of the fight) - more with the tech issues it produces.

I suppose I should have clarified more that I don't consistently run at 10fps. It spikes down to that occasionally, particularly when I have recent updates, likely due to new driver issues.

My biggest complaint is that the fail mechanic is so unforgiving. Why make it necessary to re-do the entire lab to complete when you fail? I am going to be just as careful with traps if I know I will be reset to the beginning of that level as if I will get everything reset. I will still have to make it through the traps if I fail, so the incentive to be careful (on builds without crazy resistances and regen I suppose) is still there. what else does this mechanic add? The only thing it does for me is limit when I re-try, both due to the time required and the frustration. Is that the point?

The Izaro fight requires some precise movements, reactions and timing due to both the scale of his hits and the traps you can accidentally run into, unless you have super leach VP, incredible regen or some other mechanic that invalidates this in some way. This means that both the network and hardware have to be much more responsive and stable in this fight than in most of the rest of the game up that point (I have not played much beyond T6 maps, so I would not know). Even this I could live with if on failing I was reset to the beginning of the fight and could try again (with his health, etc. reset), rather than having to run through the entire lab over again. The punishment for failure is unnecessarily severe.