[2.6/3.1] Shaper down on budget 5-link - The Debuffing Pizza (Tri-Curse CI Elementalist Flameblast)
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Khornaar wrote:
Having a blast(ba-dumm-tss) with this build. Some tweaks here and there, the usual.
So i have a question, how much damage on Conc.eff.FB do i need for shaper?
Currently i have 8k before EleOverload, (9k with Pendulum up).
I have around 40% castspeed with golems up, since i swapped Fcast for empower3.
My current FB setup:
I haven't done Shaper yet, but you're comparing a guy who did it in a 5 link with gems not at max level, to your 6 link shavs (assuming pain attunement is used) with an empower. You have 30% more spell damage and 30% more base damage. You've got more than enough damage, it's about knowing the fight at that point.
I have barely 4k tooltip with Conc. and I 1 shot T15 Abyss boss with like a 6 stack pizza. You probably kill them with a sneeze or a stern look.
So, I decided to try something out because FB was bothering me with the way it plays (small aoe unless you channel + the fact that channeling doesn't stop mana drain even when you hit full stacks). So I equipped
And swapped out FB for Vortex. I'm still undecided if this is better or not and was wondering if anyone has any numbers they can throw at me. In my eye-balling tests, it seems to do similar amounts if not more damage, and definitely increases my clear speed (because it has a larger initial AOE in a shorter amount of time than FB). I think it may be less damage on bosses, but it's hard to get a real base-line on it.
Other question I have is whether this might be hurting me with EE, because it's a constant amount of fire damage (dot) and if that will make it keep resetting their res even with Orb of Storms going.
Anywho, if anyone has any opinions or thoughts please let me know.
Last edited by bridgeburner#6448 on Nov 14, 2016, 6:05:06 PM
DoT doesn't get converted so your initial hit is Fire but the DoT is cold which actually works great for EE. In terms of damage per use, flameblast is miles ahead of Vortex. Actual dps, clear speed and boss kills I have no idea. I would think clear speed is higher since you can cast and move but single target damage can't match FB.
Having a blast(ba-dumm-tss) with this build. Some tweaks here and there, the usual.
So i have a question, how much damage on Conc.eff.FB do i need for shaper?
Currently i have 8k before EleOverload, (9k with Pendulum up).
I have around 40% castspeed with golems up, since i swapped Fcast for empower3.
My current FB setup:
Hi. Your tool tip seems high enough. OP took down Shaper with 6400ish tool tip (without EO).
One tricky part here though. OP's tool tip was achieved by almost solely stacking d-dip modifiers such as Fire/Area damage. Spell damage doesn't d-dip for FB. Therefore the tooltip numbers doesn't tell the whole story.
So, I decided to try something out because FB was bothering me with the way it plays (small aoe unless you channel + the fact that channeling doesn't stop mana drain even when you hit full stacks). So I equipped
And swapped out FB for Vortex. I'm still undecided if this is better or not and was wondering if anyone has any numbers they can throw at me. In my eye-balling tests, it seems to do similar amounts if not more damage, and definitely increases my clear speed (because it has a larger initial AOE in a shorter amount of time than FB). I think it may be less damage on bosses, but it's hard to get a real base-line on it.
Other question I have is whether this might be hurting me with EE, because it's a constant amount of fire damage (dot) and if that will make it keep resetting their res even with Orb of Storms going.
Anywho, if anyone has any opinions or thoughts please let me know.
The Ice DOT of Vortex is not converted to fire, so it won't mess up with EE. But the damage is actually very small comparing to the burn from the burn which is based on the initial hit of Vortex, and can be neglected in the final DPS calculation. You still need OoS to proc EE to reduce the fire resistance to boost the burning damage.
Last edited by loonger#5545 on Nov 14, 2016, 10:52:04 PM
So, I decided to try something out because FB was bothering me with the way it plays (small aoe unless you channel + the fact that channeling doesn't stop mana drain even when you hit full stacks). So I equipped
And swapped out FB for Vortex. I'm still undecided if this is better or not and was wondering if anyone has any numbers they can throw at me. In my eye-balling tests, it seems to do similar amounts if not more damage, and definitely increases my clear speed (because it has a larger initial AOE in a shorter amount of time than FB). I think it may be less damage on bosses, but it's hard to get a real base-line on it.
Other question I have is whether this might be hurting me with EE, because it's a constant amount of fire damage (dot) and if that will make it keep resetting their res even with Orb of Storms going.
Anywho, if anyone has any opinions or thoughts please let me know.
Some time ago in a tread about lolwlife RF Vortex I crunched some numbers.
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Khornaar wrote:
So, despite awesomeness that is Vortex, Fblast is way more popular. So i decided to do some math and here are results. 1) Vortex allows spell damage to scale burn. Since direct multipliers apply same way to Vortex and FB, i will only calculate burn difference.
Case 1: Lowlife + Con.D. means 1.3*1.44=~1.88 more burn damage
Case 2: LowLife + CD + RF means 1.88*1.6=~3x more burn damage
2a)
However, this calculations exclude spelldamage from Tree/gear.
Spelldamage: ~230% damage applied to burn for Vortex.
Other damage: ~430 damage applied to generic burns.
7.6x/5,3x=~1,43x more burn damage with Vortex.
2b)
LVL 21 Vortex deals 504 to 756 cold damage, avg. 630.
LVL 21 Fblast deals 263 to 394 fire damage, avg. 328.
Case 1: lowlife+CD Vortex deals 1,43*1.88=~2.68x burn, as if our initial damage was 2.68x higher. 1.88*630=~1690
1690/328=~5,14. Wee need at least 5 stacs of FB to get similar burn.
Case 2: lowlife+CD+RF Vortex. 4,29x burn. 630*3=2702. 2700/328=8,24. Wee need at least 8x stacks of FB to get similar burn.
3) Castspeed/mana comparison.
Base mana cost of LVL 21 FB - 10 mana, LVL 21 Vortex 21 mana.
5 stacks: we spend ~2,5x more mana casting LL FB to achieve similar burn to LL Vortex.
8 stacks: we spend ~4x more mana/~1,8 more time casting LLRF FBlast to achieve similar burn to Vortex LL RF.
10 stacks: we spend 5x more mana/~2.2 more time casting LLRF FBlast to surpass lowlife RF Vortex.
4) Ignite chance:
Since ignite chance checks individually for each mob, both Vortex and FB will guarantee ignite on packs.
But since we spend ~2x more time casting FB with the same chance to ignite, if don't ignite boss with FB - we're loosing very big DPS chunk. Vortex, on the other hand, could be casted twice, igniting bosses way more reliably. It is not a big issue if we time our FB release to Shaper of Desolation 100% ignite phase, but it's not always possible.
TLDR:
Vortex advantages:
- lower mana spending
- faster/more mobile gameplay
- easier jewel itemization
- can be used with CoC
FB advantages:
- Bigger top end burns (any version)
- easier itemization (no need for Pyre/Southbound)
- It is possible to "offscreen" dangerous mobs.
Flameblast is a good alternative to Vortex, if you have some sick mana gear ready or in general want to micromanage more for greater gains. ;)
Dot damage doesnt "reset" Equilibrium, because you need to "hit", and DoT cannot do that.
Last edited by Khornaar#3377 on Nov 15, 2016, 3:48:02 AM
As I said, I'm keeping you updated on my Atziri kill and thanks a lot guys, I did it.
The problems were in curse reflection, so I didn't go with curse on hit. Only blasphemy/enfeeble which she can't reflect. The second problem was, a little bit low damage- so I took elemental damage nodes since my ES is over 9000, so that I can be sure to one shot her in mirror phase(most important thing). And the third problem was practice, just to learn her patterns and evade her blasts. And here it is, my first Atziri kill, and this build can only get stronger. Thanks a lot for the help guys, and for the build. woohoooo :)
Thanks for this! Your conclusions especially seem to line up with what I've seen from playing it. Vortex seems WAY better for pack clearing. Both skills usually 1-shot trash, but Vortex is faster and costs less mana so it's a far superior mapping skill. I'm still undecided if I want to swap in FB for bosses or not. I got a 6L and put in added cold damage and if Vortex is less damage against bosses, it's not by much. Maybe a few extra seconds to kill them when I put in Concentrated effect.
Another Pro of using Vortex. Both skills you basically need to hit and run with the burn, but the upside of Vortex is it will keep damaging them for a few seconds longer because of the dot.
At the moment I'm only using a lvl 19 vortex without full quality, but it still does some satisfying damage, not to mention that because of pyre, enemies tend to just explode around you. I'd encourage anyone playing this build to give it a try and see if it fits your playstyle.
As I said, I'm keeping you updated on my Atziri kill and thanks a lot guys, I did it.
The problems were in curse reflection, so I didn't go with curse on hit. Only blasphemy/enfeeble which she can't reflect. The second problem was, a little bit low damage- so I took elemental damage nodes since my ES is over 9000, so that I can be sure to one shot her in mirror phase(most important thing). And the third problem was practice, just to learn her patterns and evade her blasts. And here it is, my first Atziri kill, and this build can only get stronger. Thanks a lot for the help guys, and for the build. woohoooo :)
Thanks for this! Your conclusions especially seem to line up with what I've seen from playing it. Vortex seems WAY better for pack clearing. Both skills usually 1-shot trash, but Vortex is faster and costs less mana so it's a far superior mapping skill. I'm still undecided if I want to swap in FB for bosses or not. I got a 6L and put in added cold damage and if Vortex is less damage against bosses, it's not by much. Maybe a few extra seconds to kill them when I put in Concentrated effect.
Another Pro of using Vortex. Both skills you basically need to hit and run with the burn, but the upside of Vortex is it will keep damaging them for a few seconds longer because of the dot.
At the moment I'm only using a lvl 19 vortex without full quality, but it still does some satisfying damage, not to mention that because of pyre, enemies tend to just explode around you. I'd encourage anyone playing this build to give it a try and see if it fits your playstyle.
In this build, a selfcast Vortex deals DPS of around 3~4-stack FB. It's still more than enough for mapping and even for most bosses under T15. However, the base cast speed of Vortex is equal to 4.5-stack FB, which means it takes the same time to cast one Vortex, or 4.5-stack FB. For comparison, a 2~3-stack FB is enough already for mapping. And the ignite proliferates. On the other hand, in order to get the proliferation on Vortex, you will need to equip Southbound gloves. So it depends on your playing style/gears. OP doesn't see Vortex is faster than FB here though. But it's a fun skill to mess around with. And the new MTX looks cool. :D
Last edited by loonger#5545 on Nov 16, 2016, 6:32:35 AM
